Dan Mian on How to Get Paid More: Pay Rises, Job Hopping and Salary Negotiation

This transcript is auto-generated and lightly edited for readability, it may contain errors.

[0:00] Sammie Ellard-King: Hello, and welcome to the Money Gains Podcast. This is your host, Sammie Ellard-King, and we’re back this week with my guest, who is Dan Mian. And wow, what a conversation this was. Everything you need to know about moving jobs, interviews, leveling up your skill set, side hustles alongside your main job, how to grow your income whilst you’re at your job. Honestly, it blew my mind. Dan’s knowledge in this sector is insane. And if you’re listening on Spotify, please don’t forget to whack that follow button. If you’re listening on Apple Podcasts, drop us a review. Tell a friend, it really does help the show go. But for now, let’s get started on the Money Gains Podcast. Hello Dan, welcome to the Money Gains Podcast, man. How’s it going? You well?

[1:06] Sammie Ellard-King: Hey Sammie, yeah, I’m really good, thank you. Thanks for having me on. How are you doing? Yeah, I’m really well, mate. Really well. I can’t wait for the light to come back. You know, it feels at the moment like we’re getting these like nine-hour dark days. I you know, I really just want to bugger off in January, to be honest. I can’t I can’t deal with it anymore. What about yourself? 100% on the same. I get I get that kind of seasonal decline or depression, they call it, right? I’ve been trying to go to the gym before work now every single day. So I’m up at like you know 6.37 and it’s pitch black. I’m like, oh, I just can’t wait for the day that it’s actually quite bright outside and uh get a little bit more motivation for that kind of stuff. But yeah back in the day when I had the job, you know, like it would be like, oh my god, I’ve left work and it’s light. And it would be the one day you’d notice it, and you’d just like go, yes, summer’s coming, and yeah, we’ve only got a month or two to go though. So um, but if you wouldn’t mind introducing yourself, yeah, sure.

[2:01] Dan Mian: My name’s Dan Mian. Um, I run a company called Gradvance, which is my side hustle at the moment. Um, so I’ve been doing that for a few years. I help graduates and students get jobs in the UK through uh a range of career coaching services and things like that. Also create content on LinkedIn and other platforms. My full-time role, I work for BT in digital marketing within their innovation team. I joined there as a graduate back in 2017. So I’ve been there a few years now, moved around lots of different areas of that organization. Um, also do a little bit of work in the DEI space as a deputy chair of the ethnic diversity network. So yeah, just trying to champion and uh help improve culture and those types of things, really. So that’s a little bit about me. Man of the people, then it sounds like.

[2:46] Dan Mian: Well, yeah, I try to, I try to be. Uh, I’m from a mixed heritage background myself. My dad’s uh immigrated from Pakistan when he was 12, 13 years old. So I want to do what I can to help help others really and lift them up. I love that, man. I mean, that’s why we’re here for sure. I was speaking with uh Shoshanna Davis, who I’m sure you know as well, the fairy job mother. And one of the big things, obviously, talking about your graduants and helping graduates is that gr applications in jobs are up three times since the pandemic, which is absolutely frightening for those who are potentially leaving university or even just job hunting. So, with that in mind, how do we actually stand out in this day and age? Yeah, so I’m really good friends with Shoshana, actually. We’ve been connected for a number of years. We’re in WhatsApp groups together, we’re we’re always meeting up. So what she’s doing is amazing as well. Um, yeah, I’m not surprised. I mean, I think one part of this is the reason that it’s up so high is because the internet and the way things have moved, right, with uh LinkedIn and social media, the accessibility to jobs now is so easy. Like this easy apply button that you can click, you know, you can literally click one click apply on Indeed. These types of things just means that the volume is massively increasing in terms of numbers of applicants. Um I’ve also seen a trend of people applying for lots and lots of jobs at one time. So I’ll have some people I actually spoke to a client yesterday. 800 applications he’s made within six months. It’s yeah. Now he was going through just click, click, click, click, click, click. Didn’t really have a level of focus, didn’t really know what he was applying for. And where that comes from is desperation. One, because you’ve you’ve started to see rejections, and two, that’s just because how they think it should be, right? The numbers game is uh a myth that I want to dispel a little bit of like, you know, it’s not it’s not about the number of applications you make, it’s the quality of those applications. So I think in terms of standing out, number one, don’t worry too much about the the number that you see. So, for example, if you see that 250 people have applied on LinkedIn, you might be put off straight away because it actually tells you what who how many people have applied. Um, but the reality is half of them will be immediately discounted because they don’t meet the requirements, and then probably another half will be disqualified at the first stage. So the application pool is massively reduced. If you can get yourself into that top bracket of application, then you might be able to get through initially. So don’t be put off by it. Try and get in there early, is another thing because the places fill up quite quickly. Um, so if you can set up alerts, automation is really good. So set up automated alerts, make sure you’re getting them into your inbox, be um be consciously looking at certain roles, and when you find one that you think is going to suit you, get in there quick, get in there quick so you can get into that funnel early enough. And then in terms of uh standing out, so quality over quantity for me. So there’s a few things here. First of all, make sure that you actually are applying for a job that you like and that you have skills for and that you have experience in. Um the next thing would be making sure that your tools and I mean CV, LinkedIn profile, are up to scratch. They are showing your best self, skills, achievements, these types of things, and then tailor it. So don’t just send a standard CV out to any old job role. Tailor the CV based on the job description. You can do that. The job description is kind of a gold mine of information for you because it tells you exactly what the skills required for that role and what they’re looking for. So make sure your CV is speaking that language essentially, adopt the employer’s language. Then when you make the application, the third bit, which is the bit that everyone misses out on this, is in order to make sure you get visibility of your application, it’s not enough just to apply online. I would 100% be adopting some sort of networking strategy on top of that. So if you make the application or you see an application online, think about the people that you need to find, right? So hiring manager would be great. If you could have a conversation with that person, awesome. Team members is another one. Recruiters for that role is another one. Because what happens is I move from being Dan number 80 in the application pool to Dan, the guy who messaged me on LinkedIn, who has great skills and is really interested in this role, it’s a different level straight away. And then they might be looking at you in the in the database and pick you out. So there’s a few things in there, and then you know, things like referrals as well, which is a really powerful way to get that visibility and get fast track into interviews. So that networking approach and ability is another really good way to stand out. And there’s lots of other kind of tips and advice I could give, but that those would be the core, the core basis for me.

[7:39] Sammie Ellard-King: Wow, man, that’s like number one. Oh my god, like you need to follow that. That what what great advice, man. I I couldn’t actually say it better myself if someone asked me. So yeah, I’m 100% going to be referring people to that because that’s bang on. And I totally agree. Every single job that I got when I was like going through my career um in the corporate space, was um I always messaged them on LinkedIn and just said, hey, like, great to be in touch. Thanks for accepting my thing. I put my application in. They always messaged me back and went, great, thanks, Sammie. Yeah, we’ll be in touch. That’s enough because now, as you said, you’re like, especially with a name like mine as well, like double barrel, they’re gonna see that in a list and are gonna go, oh, you know, that oh, it’s that Sammie guy. He messaged me. Let me have a look at him. And then once they’re on your CV, you’ve probably got them for 10 seconds longer than perhaps they would have spent if they would have been. They’ll probably look and go, Oh, he’s done this, he’s done this, oh, actually, he’s done this. I’m gonna give him a shot now at an interview, and you’re through that phase. So I think that’s such great advice, man. Thank you for that.

[8:49] Dan Mian: Yeah, no, 100%. Just to build on that, you know, it is that I just need a chance and I need a shot, and and getting that visibility is what’s gonna help you get there. And when it actually comes to networking in this way, there is a there is a framework that I’ve got, right? That I’ve refined over the last couple of years. It’s T E C H Tech. So T is for target. So have a focus for who you want to find. Say it’s a hiring manager for that specific role, you would target that person. E is for engage. Once you’ve found their profile, do some research on them. So, what was their career trajectory like? Have they made a job change recently? What are they talking about? What are they liking? LinkedIn profiles give you all of that stuff, right? The next thing is to connect, but don’t just press connect. This is the this is the key thing. Use the personalized connection request in LinkedIn and add a note. That gives you 300 characters to add a bespoke message to that to that outreach. And then H is highlight. So now that you’ve done your research, highlight a commonality between you and them. Now it could be that they’ve they’ve were at the same university as you, or it could be that they’ve worked in one field, finance, and then they switched to marketing, and you’re in that same trajectory, you’re thinking about doing the same thing, or they might have been featured in a blog, they might have liked this post, they might have made a post, whatever it is, reference that, and that’s how you start to build the relationship from a human-first relationship. Once you’ve got the connection, then you can move into that offline meeting, chatting about the role, that kind of thing.

[10:22] Sammie Ellard-King: Yeah, 100%, man. That’s like so, so valuable because then they they then remember you. It’s all about remembrance. I’ve just put out a post now, it’s about attention. You grab their attention in any way you can, especially when you’re in a pool of many, and perhaps you’ve got especially when you’re a graduate as well, because graduates is like you don’t have that experience, so you need to stand out on a human level because you don’t have that fallback or those, you know, five, six jobs worth of experience. You do need to kind of show your human side because that’s what’s going to make you stand out, I would imagine. And also put yourself into the mindset of the hiring manager and the employer. So skills is one thing and experience is one thing, but motivation to work for that company and do that role is huge. I’d argue it’s 50%, you know. So if I’ve got two candidates in front of me and an interviewing, one of them is brilliant, hits all the skills, the other one has very similar skill sets, but one has done no research in this company and doesn’t really understand why they want to work here. The other one has gone to town on the research, they know exactly what the values are, the culture, they’ve spoken to multiple people, they’ve networked with company employees, with the hiring managers before. They really care about that company. That is a huge weight and a huge advantage that make you stand out essentially. So it all starts from that before that strategy of networking beforehand, the strategy of research, you know, the tailored quality approach. And then once you’ve got that and you understand what you’re looking for, you can increase the numbers then and look at it in a in a slightly different way.

[11:56] Sammie Ellard-King: That’s amazing. Yeah, I love this advice. So I want to move on to touch. So I came across a study recently that showed only half of UK graduates go into the field that they studied in. Now, for me, that’s incredibly low. And as someone running a graduate-based business, why do you feel like that is?

[13:00] Dan Mian: Um, I mean, I’ve done I’ve done similar surveys and polls myself on my own LinkedIn account where I ask people, did you is your degree related to your job field? And it was 75% no. 75%? Oh wow. No, yeah, and this is like you know, several thousand people as well. I’ve run it a few times and I get the same sorts of results. I think that I don’t necessarily think it’s a bad thing. Um I I think that you know one reason why it could be happening is that you don’t necessarily do a degree thinking it’s gonna lead to a specific career. Now, this is this is my personal experience, right? I did a degree based on subjects that I would enjoy. I wasn’t necessarily thinking much about what my career would look like. That might have been a mistake or it might not have been. I don’t I don’t know. But that that might be one reason. The second reason is there’s a lot of pressure on 18-year-olds and 17-year-olds to pick a degree that is linked to a job. Now, what happens if you get into that degree and you find out that you don’t like it? You have to change, right? So I think the pressure it that’s built upon it, people are realising now actually, you know, I didn’t really enjoy that, or I want to do something different. And careers are a totally different uh playground now, different ball games, so you can switch that, no problem. Unless you’re doing something super specialist, like law, medical, you know, that requires certain skill sets, even then you can change, but you have a clear, super clear focus at that point. I just don’t think people know what they want to do at 17, 18 years old, and that’s absolutely fine. I would say use a university to build certain skill sets, to build a network, to um learn things, do extra things outside, and then figure out kind of what you like. You know, I always think of a career the same way, it’s kind of like a squiggly line, it’s a it’s it’s a journey, and I’ve I’ve had six or seven different roles in my time. None of it was necessarily planned, I just kind of followed what I enjoyed and cut out what I didn’t. So I think you can go on that trajectory, but yeah, that’s probably the the kind of couple of main reasons as to why this is happening. Um, also, you know, things change so fast as well. Now social media jobs didn’t really exist you know, 10 years ago or whatever it was. Uh well, 15 years ago, right? The in the industry of social media now is huge. Um the same’s gonna happen with AI, with all these other technologies that are coming out. So another reason might be that things change so much that you have to be adaptable in this market. I think adaptability is probably the number one key skill, especially for the kind of younger audience of a Gen Z and those coming through the ranks now. Gone are the days of traditional straight line careers. You can move, you can try different things, you should be trying different things, I think, because it adds skills, it keeps you adaptable, it keeps you at the forefront of innovation, forefront of technology change, and that’s what’s going to make you bulletproof, right? Otherwise, you’re at risk of and also for me anyway, I get bored. You don’t want to get bored when you’re when you’re when you’re at work. So, um, yeah, those are probably the couple of reasons why, really. And then other things around I don’t know, culture, parents, you know, stuff like that. People get told to do one thing, they glamorize certain roles and they realise that they don’t want to do that anymore, and they change ways, change their ways. Yeah.

[16:22] Sammie Ellard-King: Yeah, my boy’s gonna be a doctor kind of thing. Oh, is that right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no, yeah. I mean, if he does great, I’m not gonna not gonna tell it. Yeah, but the thing is, uh uh with my kids, uh, I would be very much like encouraging them to do what they want to do, not what I want them to do. Uh, you know, that’s my mentality. But I I I totally agree with you. I mean, mate, like for me, I studied music production, you know, and then that led me. But then the pathway, you can sort of see it when you look back. You go, music production led me into doing music events, which led me into marketing, which led me into marketing for restaurants and bars and clubs and music venues, which then marketing led me into branding, which led me into learning about different types of brands and how you create those, and then eventually I made my own brand in Up The Gains. So you can see where that’s come from. But if someone had said to you when I was studying music production, you’d be doing a financial education brand in your 30s, I’d have like laughed their face, laughed my face. It’s just not gonna happen, right? But that’s just how it how it how life happens, it’s a squiggly line, like you said.

[17:36] Dan Mian: I mean, it’s like you can only look back, you can only connect the dots when you look back, right? Yeah, I think it’s um it’s one of those things where yeah, I did a geography, geography and economics. Now I did geography. So that was my degree, but it’s because I got a good grades at A level for geography, economics, and English, and I was like, well, why don’t I just put the two together that I like them, I enjoy it. Um started off doing you know sales and then operations. I was in a warehouse, moved into marketing, digital marketing, started a company to help people get jobs. Had no idea any of this would happen, you know. It was um kind of that thing of just staying adaptable and and and and understanding that it’s it’s okay. Also, there’s a lot of benefit to job hopping, which I’m sure we’ll get on to. There’s benefit to being able to change and be adaptable, right?

[18:28] Sammie Ellard-King: Let let let let’s let’s touch on that. You know, that was one of my questions today. Job hopping, um, a whopping 34% higher salary when you job hop every three to five years. Now, that’s a difference of a 67k salary versus a 50k salary by the end of your career, and even bigger as you go up that chain. Now, that’s a lot, that’s a big jump. What’s your view on job hopping with a purpose? Yeah, absolutely. I think um again, there’s there’s traditional view which says that job hopping is bad, right? HR views it as a risk or they don’t like it, they don’t think you’re committed to being dedicated to a certain role, you can’t last. That is that has changed a massive amount, I think, over the last few years specifically. I see job hopping as a a way of of growing your career, and uh you know that that like no other role and career can. So if you think you know if I just take my own personal experience, um I’ve had six seven roles within about the same amount of years. So I’ve kind of job-hopped, I’d say every every year to 18 months. Um there’s a there’s a there’s a framework that I like to follow with my career called the learning curve, learning versus impact. So it’s an inverse U shape, potentially. And you’ve got your time in the role versus what you’re learning and the impact you’re making. Now, at the start, it’s like a very exponential trajectory. So you’re learning a lot, but you’re making a low impact, and at some point that curves around. So your learning slows down, but you’re making a big impact now. Now, at this point, as the longer time goes on, you’re gonna you’re not gonna learn as much, but your impact’s gonna keep growing. The company wants to keep you in that space because for them, you’re adding so much value. Now, from a selfish point of view, it’s go good for you, but you wouldn’t want to stay in that space too long because you’re gonna stagnate, you’re not gonna be learning, you’re not gonna be growing. So, my advice would be once you once you feel you’ve hit that curve, get the key achievements under your belt, get those things that you can add to your CV, those qualifications, whatever it might be, impress everybody, and then leave and go on to the next thing. And that’s the way you can take your career to that new that new level and put yourself into an uncomfortable zone and restart the learning curve, get back onto that growth, growth trajectory, make an impact, move on, grab the achievements, move on, do it again, do it again. And if you do that, as well as thinking about skill stacking, so skill stacking is essentially when you start into a role, you learn that skill, and then the next one you get, it layers on top of you. So, skill stacking. If I take myself, for example, I would say that my skill stack would be I started off in sales, so I’m pretty good at sales, had an operational view, then so I was able to manage people. Then I was looking after a customer call center, so customer service. Then I went into marketing, now I’m specialized in digital marketing. I also run a career coaching business. So those like a there’s a skill stack level there that I have. Um a lot of people will have sales skills, a lot of people have marketing skills, a lot of people have operation skills. How many people have all five of those skills? Not very many, right? So that’s what now you become unique and you become valuable, and you start to understand what your superpower is. And if you start to understand that, then you get leverage when it comes to interviews, negotiating salary, then you become a valuable asset to an employer because there’s not many people out there with that unique, those unique abilities all stacked into one, and that’s how you kind of tell your story to be able to negotiate and get the best deal for yourself. Um, so yeah, that’s the kind of way the two two couple of frameworks I look at it when it comes to job hopping.

[22:21] Sammie Ellard-King: Dan, you’re doing my job for me today. I’m loving this segueing into the topics. This is great because I agree with you wholeheartedly. You’ve done all this hard work, you’ve skill stacked, for example, or you’ve just gone and got some fantastic results, you’ve just nailed it, and you feel like you’ve hit a brick wall, perhaps, with your salary level. A study by salary.com in 2023 said that only 37. Percent of people negotiate their salary in the UK. That is, excuse my French, fucking wild if I’m being frankly honest. There’s a lot of money being left on the table here. Why do you feel like that is? Yeah, it is wild, and that is a it is a crazy stat, but it doesn’t surprise me because I work with job seekers daily. Um negotiating the salary is always almost a taboo. Um or there’s a there’s a resistance to it. Now I’ve also helped people that are like director level and they had the same problems. It’s usually more for like I think the graduate market and the early early early level market. You’d be very surprised. I think a lot of senior level of of a of of you know of job title are feeling the same same problems. So I think there’s a few things. Confidence, number one. So um, you know, should I really be asking this? You know, there’s a fear that what if they say no, what if they don’t like it, what they think I’m being too greedy, you know, these kinds of thought processes, that’s one thing. Another thing would be that I’ve seen a stat where you know women and ethnic minority people are less likely to negotiate, less likely to apply for jobs that they’re actually qualified for versus their counterparts. So that there’s something within that as well of building the confidence within yourself to know that first of all, this is absolutely normal. A lot of people and companies expect it as well, recruiters expect it, hiring managers expect expect you to uh negotiate your salary. If you’re not one, yes, you’re leaving money on the table. Um but I’d also probably realise hope hopefully help you realise that um it’s a very normal part, and they might even be questioning why then why you’re not negotiating the salary, right?

[24:38] Sammie Ellard-King: Um and yeah, I think I think Does it speak volumes for you negatively if you don’t? Sorry to butt in there, but I don’t know if it’s negative that you don’t. It if anything, you’ve it it you’ve helped them um well, I don’t know actually, because you value yourself more technically in the market, you bring a level of confidence to it, but there is there is a tactical way of negotiating your salary that doesn’t make people feel um like you’re trying to win one over on them or you’re just trying to be greedy, those those kinds of things. There is there is a tactical way of approaching it, but yeah, I think why not negotiate because they’re offering you a certain rate, and depending on what that is, is it in line with the market rate? Is it in line with what they pay other companies? Is it in line with your experience and what value you can add? Those all these questions you need to think about and be like, okay, I want to hit this level, but you also got to be realistic with that because if you’ve got no experience in that area, then you need to understand it. So it’s about being self-aware, I think. Um, but yeah, potentially they could see it as a slightly weird. I’ve never heard of a company complaining when someone doesn’t uh negotiate their salary, let’s put it that way. But you know, what’s the worst that can happen if you actually play it out? They turn around and say, No, I’ve never heard of someone being pulled a job offer from negotiating their salary. But I have heard them get more get more money, or there’s other things you can negotiate as well. So the other thing like people don’t realise salary is one thing, but if they’re not willing to budge on that because they don’t have the budget or whatever it might be, there’s other things you can add into the mix. What about holidays? What about shares? What about um pension training, qualification, pension exactly? So think about the wider mix of the offer and get the best offer for you in that time. Hybrid working, you know, remote working, these types of things can can all play into that negotiation.

[26:38] Sammie Ellard-King: I think if you’re ready as well, like that’s I basically I run big teams, you know, big marketing teams, and you always knew when someone came into a salary review or you know, just a yearly review, you always knew the ones that were ready to to fight their corner because they’d gone away, they’d researched the industry, they’d looked at their roles, they’d come in and they’d gone, I’ve done X, Y, and Z since I’ve been here. Um you know, I’m I want more money. And when you do talk about internally, are you talking about internally, you mean? Yeah, so in the meeting, you know, you’re in that meeting, you’re negotiating, even without negotiating, I call it preparation. You know, you’re like, I’ve boosted the I don’t know, since we’re talking about social media, I boosted the Instagram following by you know, 64% engagements up, X, Y, and Z, my KPIs were 40%, da da da da da. I’m smashing it basically, i.e., and also I looked at social media managers in the in my industry and they’re paid five grand more than I’m paid. I want more money, you know, like it’s very difficult to argue when those kind of conversations happen, but you’ve done your prep and your reasons behind it.

[27:50] Dan Mian: Yeah, so I think if you’re trying to if you’re trying to negotiate a promotion internally, then you should be working with your manager to understand what their expectations are and and and work with them to a progression plan. So otherwise you could just float about and wait for that annual pay rise that comes in, which is probably about 3%, you know, not even matching up with inflation. And until you make those ask and you make it clear that you want to progress, you’re not going to get anywhere. So, what I would say is make sure you mention KPIs, right? You might have KPIs, OKRs, whatever it is, what are the goals? What are the goals for the organization, for the department, for you? What do I need to hit to be the best, the top achiever? So, for example, in in BT, we have a kind of there’s a rate, and this is quite common across a lot of a lot of companies, but there’s there’s performance ratings, you know, you get brilliant good work, um, things to do, and and based on that criteria, you need to hit your certain objectives, and if you do, you get the highest level that gives you the biggest, biggest pay rises, bonuses, etc. So if you don’t have any of that in place, have a conversation with your manager. Say, look, I’m looking to get to this point in the next six or nine months. How do I get there? What do I need to achieve? What do I need to do to get to that point? Because then you and they you and them are on the same level, so they’re not you’re not surprising them with this conversation of like, I want to pay rise by the way, uh, you know, someone else is getting paid more than me. It’s not a shock to them. You’re building a plan together, and what happens is you’re adding value and hitting the objectives. Um, you’re by adding that value into the business, they’re gonna be more willing to pay pay you. Um, and it becomes really super clear once you’ve got that under your belt, essentially. So 100% build a progression plan with your manager. If you’ve done all of that and they’re still not willing to budge, you’ve done your best. Now you know you can leave, but at least you’ve tried and done it in a strategic way.

[29:41] Sammie Ellard-King: So I mean, you know, you know, it’s not a nagging thing in the back, then you’ve had that conversation, they’ve put their cards on the table. And if you walk out of that meeting with a sour taste in your mouth, you know it’s time to start looking. And they know you’re probably gonna start looking as well. Like, yeah, 100%. That’s it. And then you start to realise your worth within the company and within the market, they’re not gonna want to lose someone who’s high performing. So you start to get leverage then as well. Leverage is really important in any negotiation. And if you’re looking for a job that’s outside of a company, say a new job or your first job, there’s there’s certain things you should be doing as well. The first thing is don’t disclose your salary up front. Now, recruiters are gonna get on a phone call to you and say, uh, what salary are you on at the moment? Or applications will ask you for it. Okay, and I might put it as required as well. In the UK, legally, you don’t have to disclose your salary because what that’s gonna do is give them a potential opportunity to lowball you in the kindest possible way. If you think about what a recruit, a HR person’s job is, for example, they have a set budget, they’re trying to get the best people for the lowest amount of money, essentially, because that’s gonna bring them the most benefit. Now, that’s not what they’re gonna bring the best benefit for you. I’m not saying all companies are like this, but just in terms of negotiating generally. If that application comes up and it asks you for your salary, just put zero. Or if they ask you for that conversation, just say something like, I don’t feel comfortable disclosing my salary. However, it’d be great to understand what the salary range is for this role, and then I can look at the market rate in line with my skills and see if it fits. How does that work? So you’re keeping it very high level, you’re not putting yourself on the market because and if we go back to kind of the women and ethnic minorities, generally speaking, they’re getting underpaid. So you might be a great high quality potential in an environment that’s underpaying you. Now, if you go from that benchmark, when you should already be on this benchmark, a higher benchmark, you’re gonna be losing out. So you want to take all of that away, do your homework. What is the market rate in that location? What is the company paying other people? Now, again, networking, you can do that. Then are they disclosing a range? If the range is reasonable, um, well, they should hopefully be disclosing a range on the salary, but a lot of them don’t. Understand what the range is from the recruiter, get them, get them on the same side in the first conversation. What’s the salary range for this? You know, because then you’re gonna understand where you’re at, and then you can see if that is a reasonable way to negotiate. Because if you’ve got if you’ve got room within that negotiation or not, if the salary range is way below what you’re on already, then you know it’s not worth your time, you can move on. So, so yeah, those are a few things you can do to kind of um leverage yourself and give you a little bit more power in the negotiation.

[32:25] Sammie Ellard-King: That’s so interesting. I’ve definitely done that, like banged in X, Y, and Z salary, and then actually you find yourself like bumping it up a touch because you know you’re like, Oh, put an extra five, ten grand on that because they’re gonna know, and I want that extra money. So, but what would the what would the purpose be of asking that question? Why do I want to like if I’m asking you what your salary, why why am I asking that question? If you play it out, I can’t think of any other reason, many reasons why, when you actually get to the core crux of it, um, there’s an opportunity for us to hear to uh to to get someone in for a low low amount of money, right? I think if we were just all authentic with this and companies just displayed salary ranges and the job description, these problems wouldn’t happen. But they’re not there to do that, they’re there to get the best deal for the lowest amount of money, essentially, for them. And you’re there to get the best deal for yourself. So be a little bit selfish when it comes to that.

[33:24] Sammie Ellard-King: Oh, yeah, 100%. This is what this is your time to be selfish. If you’ve ever got a time to be selfish when you’re going through this process, this is it. If you’re then you can go back to being, you know, happy, go lucky, nice person that you know, never doesn’t he, but this time it’s when you need to kind of bring out your inner inner killer as such to get it.

[34:51] Dan Mian: Yeah, I think so. And and again, you you should be doing it in like a nice way. And I think if you if you do it with that research backed, and it just it’s just a case of you knowing your worth and knowing your value, and and that’s it. And and they’re gonna respect you for that, you know. Um, I think a lot of times the fear of doing it is way worse than actually doing it itself and what uh and the outcomes. The fear of the unknown of what’s gonna happen is the worst thing, people’s mindset. Most of the time, it’s a lot nicer than you think. You probably will end up getting a pay rise. This happens to people all the time. People go back in, and the next thing you know, they turn around and go, Oh, yeah, yeah, we can find that extra five grand. No problem. You want you in. You know, like the maddest thing about this is like if you didn’t ask, you’ve then got to live with that for the entire time that you work there, knowing that you could have asked. However, if you ask, that’s over in less than 10 seconds. You’ve asked, it’s out of the way. Perhaps you got the yes, you got the no, but then you don’t live with that for the next 18, 24, 6, 10 years that you’re at that job.

[35:54] Dan Mian: What you really don’t want to do is get in there and realise the guy next to you who’s not as good as you or the woman next to you who’s not as good as you’re getting paid 10 grand more than that. It’s on 10, 15 grand, yeah. Yeah, killing it. That’s a bummer. Like, yeah, and then you’ve got to wait because a lot of these corporates as well have you know, they have specific time periods when they actually make the pay rises, so you’re gonna have to wait till the next review comes around. It’s you know, so just just it’s definitely the time to do it is be is when you’re in that transition, you know, the job hop essentially. That’s the best time to do that. We’ve got some, we’re we’re we’re we’re coming to the back end of this, and I I don’t want to uh not ask you a couple of these questions. So I think it’s really important to talk about the gender equality across industries. And we, you know, you’ve done some work in this space, and I think especially with the tech industry, I I saw that only 18% of women are currently studying and then going into work in the tech industry. That’s 82% than men. With industries like, say, the tech industry, which is basically you know how we run civilization these days, what can be done in those areas to bridge those gaps that we’re facing?

[36:59] Dan Mian: Yeah, I think acknowledging the problems first, right? So there is a gender imbalance, there’s um ethnic minority imbalance as well. I think addressing those problems, and that there’s things like people networks within these big companies which are there to kind of champion these things, and DEI teams now that are working hard on closing the gaps and sat the gender, you know, salary pay gaps and and those types of things. But there’s probably more that can be done as well to um around you know, like women in tech, STEM education, these types of initiatives where you’re going to to young girls maybe in schools and kind of educating them on what a tech career could look like because they need to see it. I think the representation is important when people see it, they have the opportunities to go there and they can do it. There’s some incredible um you know female role models as well in the tech space that are doing amazing things. Uh, founder of Canva, let’s just as an example, you know, raising you know a unicorn business fumble, exactly. So I think having those role models represented is is brilliant, giving people the confidence, and then there’s lots of things around I don’t know, inclusive hiring, um, making sure that training is embedded into your processes, you know, mandatory race training, um, understanding gender, and those types of DEI nuances that need to be embedded into company culture, especially in large corporates. Um but I think for any any female that is wanting to get into tech, then 100% go for it and realise that your diversity is your power. You know, it’s it’s not a it’s not something that’s gonna hold you back, it’s actually something that’s gonna add a lot of value to you and to that team and to that business. Diverse teams are the most productive by an absolute far landslide if you look at the stats for a reason. You know, we need a range of diverse perspectives that represent the diverse customer base that you’re serving and everything else. And by having different personality traits, different skills, different genders, different ethnicities within your team, it’s enriching your team. So go back to yourself and be like, okay, who am I? What’s my background? Where do I come from? What am I great at? Right, okay, this makes me great, this makes me unique, instead of thinking, um, this isn’t I’m not gonna because I’m not that person or that type of person, I’m not gonna get the job. You know, I have people some that are female, who have who are international graduates or students or professionals who speak multiple languages, who have done these amazing things, and I think I’ll sit there thinking, wow, like you’re incredible, but they don’t believe it, they don’t see it themselves. So it’s to get that confidence back into you by instilling it and realising that all of these things that you’ve done in your life and and your your own diversity is extremely valuable and companies are looking for it.

[39:47] Sammie Ellard-King: What a lovely way of putting it. I really like that, man. It’s so difficult because you know, actually, for me, my team, I really just hired off the quality of the candidate. There was nothing for me other than that, but I know for a fact in other teams that other managers in those teams would hire based off, you know, are they going to be my pals? I.e., are they from the same place? Do they speak the same way? Do they look the same way? And and and often, you know, you see that right in front of you. And it’s just the way that things are. So actually, sometimes you do need to find those companies and those individuals within those companies which are open to more diverse teams and opportunities within those spaces because they, you know, they they are out there. Um, it’s just a case of uh of finding them.

[40:35] Dan Mian: Yeah, 100%. And you know, I’d argue if there’s a hiring manager within the company that doesn’t have a diverse team, they need to be targeted on that. They need to be especially in large corporates, right? Um, it needs to be it needs to be built into the system, essentially, into their performance reviews. And again, it’s going back to the to the facts. The facts of the matter is diverse teams are higher performing. This isn’t just making stuff up, it’s it’s it’s known across the entire world, essentially. You all you have to do is Google it to find plenty of studies around this and why it’s the case. So if you’re a hiring manager, you probably should be looking at diversity within your team to make sure you’re getting the best out of your team. You know, you can’t just have the same types of people with the same perspectives on life and the same skills. That doesn’t really make sense, right? So, yeah, it’s just it’s it’s broadening your mind as a hiring manager to produce the best performing team as well.

[41:27] Sammie Ellard-King: Yeah, love this, love this. Um I I want to touch on it because it was something you brought up as well when we were discussing ideas. And I, you know, we’ve had a few different viewpoints on this podcast. I’ve got a different view, and there’s a debate around whether or not you should or shouldn’t have a side hustle on the go in 2024. Now, I’m very much in the camp of, you know, if you’re if you think you’re meant for greater, then great, do it, go and build it. Or if you really need to get some extra cash because, you know, the cost of living, things are tough right now, and you need to take on a second income. So a side hustle is that option for you, then go and do it. But also, if you’re happy in your job and you’re nailing it and you’re happy and things are custody, then great, then side hustles aren’t for you. Do you think that everyone should have a side hustle in 2024?

[42:16] Dan Mian: No, absolutely not. You don’t need it. I mean, look, I have one, I love them, I think they’re great. Now, but not everyone needs to have a side hustle. You can do amazing things with your career. You gotta think we work eight hours a day, nine to five, right? It’s a lot of time. Now, if you’ve got kids, you’ve got other commitments, maybe you want to have a social life as well. It’s gonna it’s hard to do the side hustle. That said, though, I do think a side hustle brings a lot of benefit to you and your career. And we can get into that. Um, I think there’s also an argument around entrepreneur versus nine to five. You know, it’s almost been glamorized. Entrepreneurship’s been glamorised from a young age. If you’re not 21 and have got a six-figure business, right, and you’re killing it and you’ve got a million followers online, then something’s wrong. No, like this is the totally wrong argument. It’s it’s actually bonkers, it’s crazy. So I want to kind of go back to this basics of nine to five job, which is giving you a great salary, progression, skills, and network, is so so good for you, for your career and your life right now. It’s people don’t realise this, but there’s so much opportunity that comes from that. If I take my own personal um situation, you can’t get a mortgage without a good job, right? If you want to start a business, it’s gonna take you three years of a specific amount of money generated to then go and leverage that for a mortgage. So you can’t really buy a house and get on the property ladder. Nine to five will give you that. You can go and get a mortgage. So I did that with my own house. It’s also paid for my lifestyle, my holidays, my wedding, right? A lot of the all this stuff. But not only that, I’ve told you about the number of job roles I’ve had within within BT. I picked BT as my dream job because of the the scope and breadth of the company. I’ve gained so many great skills from it, I’ve done so many brilliant different training, learnings, network. That is all built into my side hustle, that’s all helped me build a better business. Now, the other thing is time and money, right? Time is is limited, yes, but that money I’m getting from my salary is also funding some of my side hustle, my investments, right? So I think it’s it’s like understand and it also gives me the time to think about what I want to do with this business and what I want to do with this side hustle, and then do it slowly in my own way. I don’t need to go and get investment, I don’t need to go and grow it crazy like massive. I can do both at the same time and I can do it on my own pace. So, and also I’ve invested I invested money and I save money because of that as well. So I think there’s so many benefits to being in a nine to five that you’re happy in. If you want to do a side hustle 100%, I think it’s a great idea. The reasons are I’ve been able to leverage so much value from my side hustle into my career. The the two of the two have connected together. So BT have asked me to do workshops across the business to hundreds of the early careers department. I’ve I’ve actually my most recent job I got because I showed them I was a small business owner and we were running a product that was for small business owners, I got 50% pay rise with that job, right? So there’s there’s like so many more angles to it. You become a unique individual, you become someone who is oh, starting a business, creating content, doing all these things. Again, it’s that skill stack thing. You become so unique and it’s interesting, and you can also bring in loads of stuff I’ve learned from gradvance into into BT, loads of stuff I’ve learned from BT into Gradvance, and the two work have worked really well together for me. So I would say. That if you wanted to do it, start small, find a little niche and get going and see how it goes. You know, use your time in the evenings to build it. Um take it from there. And there’s no real downsides really to me, from from um to be totally honest with you. I think it is uh super beneficial in terms of job security as well. Um I’m a lot less reliant on my salary than I used to be. So it’s giving me that freedom and security and confidence to know if God forbid something happened like I got very redundant, which is happening across the tech industry now, I’d be alright. Right? So it’s it’s it’s building that into your into your um into your life as well, which I think is really valuable.

[46:38] Sammie Ellard-King: Love that answer, man. I always well, I think I’m gonna have to start asking this to more people because it’s so interesting to hear the people’s different perspectives, but from a career perspective, it makes so much sense because you are, as you say, more valuable to that employer because you are doing and showcasing that you’re willing to go the extra mile outside to build something else. And those qualities in an individual often stand out, uh, I find as well, especially when I was hiring teams. I always said to them, like, number one question so like, especially when the role is like, you know, administrative manager or office manager. I always used to just say, like, you know, what do you what do you actually love doing? Like, what do you do? Yeah. Because the answer isn’t, oh, I, you know, I organise people’s offices. It’s like, oh, I like doing X, Y, and Z. I like, you know, I love horses. I love X, Y, and Z. And then you start to get to know the real person, you find out, oh, they run a, you know, they run a riding school on the weekends for little kids. Amazing. Like, this this is now we’re getting somewhere. Great. You know, there’s and you know with that one, Sammie, as well.

[47:47] Dan Mian: You know, with that specific example, it it sounds like that horse riding school that she had wasn’t on on her CV. Or it wasn’t used in the interview. So this is the other thing you don’t realise that building a side business you can leverage to get a job. I had a client who was wanting to get a job at TikTok. Well, she was making content on TikTok and growing an audience on there organically, it wasn’t even on her CV, but she built a massive audience on TikTok. So we worked together on how do we take that information and build it for the a TikTok CV and a TikTok portfolio. So when you apply to that job, um you’ve got way more chance of getting it. Well, she did get the job at TikTok, she got a great job at TikTok. Um, because and and it’s because she was one of very, very few candidates who are actually using the platform, right? So if you want to get into any old any job, really, you can leverage a side business or side hustle with the skills and the achievements that you’ve done to actually make you stand out, right? Going back to our first point of standing out in the job search, leveraging your side hustle to stand out.

[48:57] Sammie Ellard-King: I think we just nailed the podcast title and the last little bit there. Um I love that, mate. I love that, that’s great. No, I I completely agree. It’s it’s it’s a really good way of looking at it, but also, you know, if you’ve got great skills and you’re a good person, a good candidate, it’s not essential, and that is important to say, I think these days shoved on everyone at the moment, man. It’s starting to grind. Burnout is real, burnout is real. So if you’re if your job is enough, it is enough. If you want to start a side hustle, go for it. You want to start it, stop it, go again, whatever. No one, not everyone needs to have a side hustle. Um, my wife doesn’t. She’s she’s quite happy with her job and getting on with it and then doing other things in the evenings. That’s fine. That’s absolutely fine. You can still make an amazing career and you know, do great things in a nine to five job, right? Um, maybe one day you have a change of heart.

[49:54] Sammie Ellard-King: Yeah, exactly. If you get an aha moment, you go, that’s not for me, and I really want to try X, Y, and Z. And to do that, I’ve got to build it out on the side of my, you know, my nine to five because I’ve got responsibilities and I’m a fucking adult. Then like, you know, it’s like then great, but if that doesn’t happen, it doesn’t happen. And you know, it’s my decently go on, go on. Sorry, uh, I was just gonna say something I’ve battled with, and I wonder what I wanted to get your thoughts on this. I’ve struggled personally with um my dream was to get a great corporate job, like at BT, and go out of the ranks. That was what I was my dream coming out of university. Then I got that and I started doing that, and then my dream started to change. It was like, oh no, actually, I want to try this entrepreneur thing out. So my I I shifted, I shifted path and I was like, hang on a second. My life right now, to be totally honest, is is great. Like, I love it. I’ve got 25 days holiday for bank holidays, I get paid a very good salary. Um I love my job, it’s I got you know, actually as well. I had a knee operation um a couple of years ago from playing football. I had six uh weeks where I couldn’t, I was completely bedridden. And then four months essentially, that BT just paid me and I was off. Right. So there’s there’s other benefits that you don’t realise, healthcare benefits and those types of things as well. But back to my point, I was like, well, you know what? If I just stopped it all now, I’d be pro I’d be pretty happy with my life. Like I’m I’m doing fine. So why do I keep grinding? Why do I keep working so hard? You know, have you battled with this yourself?

[51:31] Sammie Ellard-King: Yeah, I I have. And I had a really great thing from the Chris Williamson and Modern Wisdom podcast. Um, and that was the goal isn’t the goal, it’s about the journey. So, when no matter when, as soon as we hit the goal, it’s never like a case of, oh yeah, everyone celebrate. You know, we’ve hit the goal. It’s like most people, it just completely shifts and continuously shifts throughout the time. And it’s once you start enjoying the journey and the process that life becomes enjoyable. So at the moment, you’re enjoying the journey and the process, which is why you’re happy with how things are going, because you feel fulfilled. Now, your goal might you might get there next year, but I guarantee you, being the type of person that you are, you’re gonna shift that goal and it’s been become something brand new. And as long as you’re just enjoying the way that you’re getting there, and then that that is the framework, and that’s something that I’ve really had to battle with. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[52:27] Dan Mian: I love that. I love that. Yeah, I’m gonna start to adopt that kind of mindset. You’re so right, it is the journey and it is enjoyable and it’s fun. So I kind of like doing what I do. Um but at the same time, you know, yeah, exactly. And that’s great, that’s a great mindset to have. But at the same time, like if it did just start now, you know, I’m we’re doing all right, doing great, you know. So it just depends on where you’re at, I suppose, isn’t it? We’ve got a roof over our heads and we’ve got food on the table. That’s a start, isn’t it? And I think take a little bit of context sometimes and just realise actually you’re doing pretty fucking well. If you left university and looked at where you were, if I said I was gonna be there in my mid-30s, would I be pretty happy with that? Yes, I bloody would. So that is another thing I do actually. Me five years ago, looking at me now, would I be proud and happy and shocked? I would actually be shocked to be honest with you that I’m here at this point on a podcast with you. Like, bloody hell, done so well.

[53:18] Sammie Ellard-King: That’s amazing, you know. Same having this chat on a Tuesday afternoon. Like, who are we? Exactly. Podcast mic, lights are on, looking at me thinking, what is going on here? I know you’ve done alright. Well, I’ve really enjoyed this, Dan. Thank you, man. It’s been a class episode and so unbelievably packed full of value. I’m gonna really enjoy clipping this one up, and um yeah, um, where can people reach out, say hello, or or check out what you do? Yeah, absolutely. So LinkedIn’s the best place. Dan Mian on LinkedIn would be great. Uh ping me a DM to tell me that you uh heard me on this podcast. It’d be great to connect with you and see what you kind of enjoyed about it. Uh Gradvance is kind of all over my LinkedIn, so you can kind of see what we’re all about there.

[54:07] Sammie Ellard-King: Amazing, man. Thanks so much for coming on. Awesome. Thanks, Dan. Appreciate it.