What Happens If You Die Without a Will? Sam Grice on Unmarried Partners, Executors and Inheritance

[0:00] Sammie: Sam, welcome mate. Um, thank you for coming on. I struggle with this topic. Yeah. From I think it’s because like I need to organise my thoughts and thinking in the way that it’s structured. But I think up until this point, until very recently, I haven’t had enough I felt like I’ve haven’t had enough responsibilities to like sort this out. But this moment for you happens to you because you you needed to sort it out. Um take me back to that moment and that call that you had and and and what happened after that.

[0:32] Sam Grice: Yeah, sure. So I mean, yeah, but it’s it is a topic that most people avoid um for lots of reasons. We we see what happens when um when people don’t put plans in place, including our family. But um, yeah, I mean, I was in financial services, um, uh I was 27, so I’d be, you know, I’d lost a um a couple of my grandparents, but no one in kind of my close um guest direct family. And then yeah, it was a Sunday morning. Um my sister was calling me on my phone. I was uh answered it, and yeah, it’s one of those calls you never really want to get. Um, and obviously a hard call for her to make as well. Um, but yeah, told me um, yeah, mum, mum had been killed, and and my dad was also in the hospital, so it was a very, yeah, very intense conversation to have. And then the next few weeks, just yeah, it’s like you forget a lot of it and some of it’s just vivid. It’s like a really hard, hard um period to deal with. But yeah.

[1:20] Sammie: And what happened after that moment where you had to start dealing with the situation? What or what was going on there?

[1:27] Sam Grice: Yeah, well, I mean, I was in it firstly, just like there’s a lot of logistical problems that comes with death. The the first part I always explain it is yeah, logistics and then funeral, like a it’s like organizing a wedding in two weeks with while you’re while you’re grieving, especially in mum’s case. I say all death is quite um is it is a bit of a shock or death, I think, even when you’re expect expecting it, uh, it can be a shockful. But I mean, I was in a different city, I had to get flights, had to, you know, navigate that, you know, and you you’re, I mean, the FCA um the regulator now is is is classing bereaved people as vulnerable, and you can see why. Like you’re not thinking straight. I think we nearly booked flights on the wrong week. Like, you know, you’re just not on a space to do that. Um, packing, if you think it’d be an easy task, you’d know what do I need for a funeral? And so the whole and and but the whole few first few weeks is very much like that because you you haven’t thought about what you’re going to do, but equally you’re trying to plan for a funeral for someone that um you love and they’re not there anymore. And then the legal and the financial start uh stuff starts quite quickly. So while you’re still wondering, well, you know, you’re gonna have to pay for a funeral, how much is a funeral? Where are we gonna get the money from? And we’ll go into this later, but how the how the bank accounts are owned, are they joint or are they separate? If they’re separate, that’s quite hard. And so you go through this process of not knowing anything and having to suddenly be an expert at it. Um, all at the time you’re grieving, which is one of the most heightened emotions you can go through. So yeah, it’s it’s a chaotic period to say the least, and it doesn’t stop for 12 to 18 months of of just admin and and stuff no one wants to be doing.

[2:56] Sammie: So I’m still in it now. My nan passed two years ago on the October the 10th, so we’re coming up to that now, and we’re still we’re still going.

[3:03] Sam Grice: Yeah. It’s it’s not. It’s scrolling. And we talk about this later, but um and and you know, the people that execute an estate will work with it. I think people start it with the good intentions and just don’t realise how much work’s involved in in dealing with the death of someone, like the admin attached to that event is a lot more than people think. Um, they say it takes up to 500 hours for a lay person to deal from start to finish on a death, which sounds like a lot, but we’ve got a team of professionals and it takes them about 50 hours, and that’s what all they do every day. So it’s not actually crazy to uh to see why it takes 50 hours. 500 hours, sorry. It’s still a lot though. 50 hours. 50 hours is a lot, yeah. Yeah, and they’re professionals. Yeah. So all they do every day is get up, go to go to work and complete, go through the probate and and the administration of wills, and it takes them that long because it’s a lot of communication. You gotta go to agencies, you’ve got to, they’re all different, they require different documents, so it’s it’s um and and there’s no standardized way of doing this. Um, so yeah, it does, it takes ages.

[4:06] Sammie: So when this happened, there was no funeral plan, was there? And uh, you know, I heard you talk about this, and that can be quite stressful in its own regard because you’re trying to think about what the person would want to see, right?

[4:18] Sam Grice: Yeah, so there was no there was no funeral, she’d never really had a proper discussion with us. Um, and and the there was a will, but the will was out of date, which I talk about a lot, which is actually harder than a a no-will sometimes. Really? Because they don’t match what the person wanted. You know, if you write your 20-something years ago, once you dust it off, you go, oh, this is not what we thought. It was a legally binding document. So um, you mean you can there’s ways of changing it, but we’ll we can go into that later. But but yeah, um, but the funeral, and you’re trying to you’re trying to create uh an event, and this is where a lot of our industry, the will writing or solicited industry, they don’t talk about things like this because it’s not the law, but not having a funeral plan, even if it’s just what you want, means that every decision you don’t make, your family’s gonna have to make. So there might be 25 decisions you need for a funeral or something. I don’t know what it is, but um, if you haven’t written that down and taken your family through it, they’re gonna have to do that. And it sounds really like from the outside, it sounds a bit silly, but say like a funeral song, that wouldn’t take too long to pick. It does, because you’re you’re really worried about it. You’re like, what song emulates their life? And it’s like, and you and they’re not there to make it. So it sounds sounds like a little thing, but I remember our family, we with ours to discuss what songs we wanted at a funeral. And the flip side of that is it’s quite nice being around and being with them. But it would have also been nice to have something from Mum where we could have said, Well, she wanted these songs, we’ve picked a few others, and together that’s the plan. But because you have nothing, you yeah, we were just winging it. Like, what would what would she like? What coffin would she like? Would she what cut like do we do a full funeral? Do we not? Like, yeah, lots of decisions.

[5:50] Sammie: Cremation, not cremation, like that is actually endless, isn’t it? Like, I’ve been through the whole process. I arranged my whole nan’s funeral, and it is nuts. The level of detail that goes into it is is insane.

[6:01] Sam Grice: Well, and and people have differing opinions. So we we knew what we knew mum wanted to be um um cremated, but um her mum, who was still alive, that’s obviously the sad part of mum mum died quite young, so her mother’s still alive, um, assumed she wanted to be buried because that’s what she wants, and so we had to explain to Grant she wants to be cremated because it’s not normal that generation buries their children. Of course. So they she has a plot, and her husband’s gonna, she her husband, my granddad’s there, so she was gonna go next to him, and then she was thinking, Oh, should we get buried? But um, yeah, so not that it didn’t cause any problems, but I would say that it could have done in some families, especially um with different different, they might have particularly strong views on something. And if if it’s not written down and discussed, then yeah, that causes and you start to get this family friction, um, which is and and we see a lot of that through the process, which we’ll I’m sure we’ll talk about today. But ultimately, this does end up in families um fighting, which is not not nice.

[6:54] Sammie: Unfortunately, that’s like where we’re at at the moment. It’s because there’s like uh sisters, brothers in different countries, different things, different way of thinking, different different responsibilities, different needs, and it and trying to deal with the whole process is nuts. And yeah, I I I’m power of attorney, and I’m sure we’re gonna get into that because it’s a big thing I want to talk to you about, and what that actually means. And and so I’m sort of middlemanning this whole process, and it’s just wild.

[7:19] Sam Grice: And and and what often happens is I think life’s full of lots of hard decisions, and um who gets your estate is quite a big outcome for people. Exactly. Um people assume what’s gonna happen. So, you know, people assume kids are gonna get the money split evenly between them. Um maybe the the person doesn’t decide to do that, and we’ll talk about wills and also what if you don’t have a will, but um but what can often happen, for example, is a really normal decision would be that a a parent would decide to um to give the the inheritance out on unequal levels. And that might be because one child is particularly well financially and the other is struggling a little. Yes. And as a loving parent, they’ve decided, in my opinion, I’m gonna give them more. But they don’t document that. So without the communication, then so the death happens, and that child who’s assuming they’re gonna get 50% of an estate or 30% of an estate suddenly only gets five percent or no inheritance without proper communication can actually cause conflict, even if they just had an adult conversation about it while everyone was alive and go, Oh, yeah, that makes perfect sense. I don’t need anything, don’t worry about it.

[8:22] Sammie: It’s like you’re uh it’s like you’re in my head and this is happening to me now because it’s it’s incredibly common. It’s mad.

[8:27] Sam Grice: We’d say we’d say about 50% of families have some sort of conflict, whether it’s a proper fallout. Um, we and we’ve seen, I mean, without going into details, you know, we’ve had to send police to houses to to change door locks because people, children were coming in and taking items. So it can it can get, and and it happens more often than you think. So we we think about 50% of our not contested, that’s a legal process we can talk about as well, but um just conflict. We think it’s around 50% of states have some sort of this wasn’t what I thought, or I want that painting, I want that painting. And we you’re said you’re the middle man at the moment, as our business by default, we are the we’re the the impartial legal professional in that, and we see it all the time, uh, every day. That’s sad.

[9:10] Sammie: It is sad. You thought sort of thing, I’ve sort of felt like at the moment I’m like, oh my god, this is just never gonna end.

[9:16] Sam Grice: Yeah.

[9:16] Sammie: But then also I’m kind of like, well, I need to be responsible at the same time and sort of try and mediate different people, and it’s it’s not easy. But it’s over half of the UK. Yeah. Don’t have a will. No. And so like this is a this is a problem because it and and uh that’s not gonna go away. That’s gonna be more conflict, more issues.

[9:35] Sam Grice: Well, to make it worse, so as I said, because I actually think out-of-date wills are sometimes more damaging, but so you’ve got half without them, and then a huge percentage of those who do have them are out of date. I say they’ve done them in 10, 15, 20 years. Correct. I reckon I reckon if you I mean, I I don’t know this, but if you were to assume how many people in the country have an up-to-date valid will, it’d be like 10, 15%.

[9:55] Sammie: And what and in your eyes is an up-to-date valid will. Like, what’s that was it, wasn’t it?

[9:59] Sam Grice: It matches your wishes. Yeah. So in the current state. Correct. So, for example, it’s very common for um adults, um, parents when they’re younger, unmarried, and that we’ll go into the unmarried married thing because it’s a big, big deal uh with your with your your estate, um, might decide to allocate some of their estate to minor children when they’re young to support them in case something was to happen to them. But now their minor children are 60 and and they’ve got their own children and they’ve got their own estates. Um, and they might decide, I want to give that to my grandchildren, or I want to give that to um charity. And what people get into a really bad habit of doing is saying that without updating their will. So they’ll say, I’m gonna give, you know, 20% to my my uncle or someone, and they have that conversation with them, but they don’t make a legally valid will after it. Then so when the death occurs, that person assumes, oh well, I was I was told by you know Auntie Dorothy that I was gonna get 20% of the estate, um, and they’re not. And so, yeah, so out-of-date wills can cause a lot more conflicts. Um, and it some of the wills we we redrafted 20, 30 years old.

[11:01] Sammie: That’s where I’m at. Yeah, yeah. It’s literally right where I’m at. Yeah, is because uh conversations I’ve had with different people and um she passed before she updated it.

[11:11] Sam Grice: Yeah, it’s it’s very, very common. Same thing with like wedding rings, um, uh uh specific paintings in home that are special. So, you know, wedding ring is a is a thing that I think my mum luckily, me and my sisters had quite a strong relationship. Um, but I think mum had told both daughters they could have the wedding ring and then and then me the engagement ring or something, she’d said this and then never wrote it down. So when the death occurred, we actually decided something. Oh, I end up getting in the wedding ring. But the um but but anyway, yeah, but so these conversations happen, and I think it’s because people that is their wishes, it’s what they want. They just don’t go around to that step of making it a legally valid um document, which it which it has to be. Um, and so they just have these conversations, but they never um they never write it down.

[11:53] Sammie: So let’s talk about the scenario which is probably the worst one, which is no will, and this happens, and then you’re in this situation, and let’s say there’s kids, there’s grandparents, there’s there’s a lot, there’s multiple moving parts. Legally, what is the actual like state’s definition of what happens to the estate? Does it is it spouse or children? I don’t know. And so I’d love to understand that.

[12:18] Sam Grice: Yeah. So it’s a good question. So I actually I actually actually use this as a as a as a discussion point at times, but everyone does have a will in the country. It’s just the will that’s been drafted by the government. Yeah. And so that’s the set of laws. It’s the laws of metesticy. Um, and they they somewhat follow what a lot of people would want, but there are nuances, especially if you’re not married. Um, but um generally what happens is, well no, what legally happens is 322,000. It’s a nice round number for the government to use, but transfers to your um to your to your married partner. So if you’re married, it would go to your wife. Right. Where it differs, because most people assume if I die, everything goes to my wife or my husband or my my legal married partner. Um that’s so that’s not true. So what happens is that 322 goes to them, then the rest of your estate is split 50-50, 50% to your wife, and 50% to your benefit uh your dependents or your children. So in that case, your children would inherit some money. Um now that might match what a lot of people want, but what you what what where it gets into nuances is if you owe an inheritance tax, there’s certain tax differences. And so what you might end up getting is a taxable estate when it actually shouldn’t have been, because that’s not what the person wanted. But yeah, so that’s the process. And if you are not married, so um what’s very common, can be more common in the country, especially around second relationships, is that they’re not legally married. So they’re in a long-term partnership. Um, that has nothing to do with um the government’s uh estate rules. So in that case, um your your assets would go to say children, or if you don’t have any children, so if you’re unmarried in a relationship for 20 years, um it would it sometimes goes up, goes up to your parents. Um so so it’s uh not exactly what you want. The laws of intestine online, you can go look at them because there are some nuances, but and then could it go sideways to a brother if that’s not it’s the it’s the neck the not next known and there’s there’s a there’s a set of how it all works, right? Um who’s alive and who’s not, but it’s it’s uh it’s a it’s um in your uh in your lineage. So if you’re not married, it yeah, it doesn’t count. Which is a big surprise for people. Yeah, also we’ll get into power of attempts.

[14:24] Sammie: Yeah, because technically you’d think oh, 50-50 is a fair split within because if they are your kids, like oh, but then you’ve got kids outside of marriage, yep, second, third marriages, what happens in those guys, like it it then starts getting wildly complicated.

[14:38] Sam Grice: Well, if you’re not married as well, so stepchildren won’t be stepchildren unless you’ve adopted them. So, so so yeah, it it gets complex if you if you’re if you’re gets more complex if you’re not married. Um, but even if you are married, um so this is where we talked about four, because someone doesn’t have a will. Um, if you think about um um a married couple been married for 50 years, got children all in their 50s or something, um, and they die without a will, the the the and let’s say the husband dies, the wife might assume she’s getting the whole estate. Yeah. She she won’t be. Um, and she might then be sharing the house. So her the well, we’ll get into house ownership and stuff later, but with someone else. And that’s not what she probably is assuming gonna happen because that person might want to sell the house.

[15:21] Sammie: This is the so this is where I went down the rabbit hole. And I I uh hands up, I AI’d it, guys. I’m sorry, but I asked what would happen to me because I’m in this situation, yeah. Um, and my partner would get nothing. Yes, yeah, um, I’ve been with her nearly a decade. We own a home together, and it’s basically she’d be left like with absolutely nothing, which wouldn’t be my wishes. No, um, and then homeownership, how you own a home matters as well.

[15:48] Sam Grice: So we’re joint, yes. You’ve got joint tenancy and you’ve got tenants in common. Joint tenancy, um, if you’re married, um, would transfer um over to to your wife or husband. Um, and uh tenants in common, no. So so that that’s the situation people get stuck into. Unmarried partners in a house that’s uh and the tenants in common. What might happen is you would let’s say you you were to die, um still have living parents, your your share could go to your parents with your partner. That’s what it’s and that’s what scared the life out of me. Especially, I’m not going into your personal life, but we can do, but if your parents don’t like your partner, which is common, there’s a massive conflict you’ve just created.

[16:26] Sammie: They like my partner, but we don’t get on. Yeah, well, and so that um well my my mum I do, um, but my dad I haven’t spoken to in in multitude of years. Yeah. So he would own a I mean he would own uh about half of your house, yeah. Which is what the AI told me, and I my like literally had the fear of God. Instantly I’ve got to sort this out. Um and that must not be alone, like especially in today’s day and age, uh, marriage is becoming far less common than it was, but longer term partnerships and civil partnerships are becoming uh are on the rise, um, especially home ownership in in that regard. And so that is something you need to consider because like technically I would sort of look at this as like I would like my home uh to go over, and then I’d like some other assets to go to my sister and things like that, and that and that’s kind of it, yeah. So it’s like and I I I just found that quite um like it gave me a real kick up the ass when I was like, okay, now I really need to think about this. Um, and if there’s no will at all, then the law will decide against everything, and it might not be how you want it. And we just walk through what happens there, but how can we shift the balance in that? And how simple is this process to just get this thing rocking and rolling and in place and somewhere where it’s comfortable for you?

[17:45] Sam Grice: Yeah, we’ll we’ll we and we I think we might do one today, or we’ll talk through the questions today with for a will. Wills are not actually that complex to get in place. There’s a few intricacies you need to name, but yeah, well, how you own a home can be changed quite easily, with a you know, that can be done as well. Um, so you even just changing the way it’s owned can change where it what happens to it. Um unfortunately, if you’re not married, there’s only so much you can do. Um, so when we talk about inheritance tax later, but um there’s certain thresholds for for married spouses. If you’re not married, it’s it’s it’s you can change your will to make assets go to that person, but they might pay inheritance tax. So again, it’s um if you’re not married, there are advantages of being married. Uh, I think hopefully the government is there’s some new rule uh laws coming out around um the fact of relationships. And I I think it’s I mean, you I’m from New Zealand, so those laws are quite established in New Zealand. I was actually surprised that they haven’t updated those laws because it does seem a bit odd. You can have someone living together for 30 years and in the law, um, they don’t see them as married, which which is very bizarre. But so hopefully the laws will update. But in the meantime, if you’re not married, um you can still update your will, but yeah, there’s still tax implications of not being married.

[18:56] Sammie: So Martin Lewis talks about power of attorney ugly be being more important than a will. Yeah. Um, why and and what’s the nuances and differences between them?

[19:05] Sam Grice: Yeah, I think he says it’s more important to you. Um, I would arguably say it probably is more important because um it’s more important to you because your will is not for you. So what you’re trying to do is sort out the chaos that’s going to follow after you die. But ultimately you could say, well, you know, it’s just up to my family to sort out. Um I wouldn’t suggest that, but um, but so it doesn’t impact you personally. But a power of attorney, a lasting power of attorney documents um affect you while you’re alive. Um and so what what they are is the two got two documents. You’ve got your health and your finances. Um, and what you’re doing is you’re um you’re you’re appointing an attorney or attorneys. Um, and we can talk if you’re interested, we can talk about the advantages of having multiple attorneys versus single attorneys. But ultimately what you’re doing is giving one person or multiple people um power to make decisions on your behalf if if you’ve lost capacity. Um and why that’s uh important for you is um again, some wishes you might have might not match um what um what the the what happens in society or with the government. And so what it does is allows someone that you trust to step in and make those decisions. So all sorts of things, but for example, um you’re un you’re unmarried, um, you might um lose capacity. Let’s hope not, but let’s say you do. Um, and let’s say you’ve got you know your share of the property and and your your partner wants to put you in a nice care home. Yeah, um, that might not be what happens. Um and so um so there’s only so many decisions people can make. So what they would do is give someone permission to make financial decisions on your behalf. So might say, well, actually, this is what he wanted, or equally it’s what he didn’t want. He didn’t want to go into this stuff. Um, and so it just it just gives someone the ability to make decisions on your behalf. Two documents, both are very important. Um, and the finance one is yeah, the ability to access your accounts and make financial decisions. Um, there’s limits to what they can do when you’ve lost capacity, but ultimately it’s it’s normally in your best interests. Um, and then health would be health decisions as well. And the the doc it’s quite lengthy. The documents do go into detail about stuff, but certain treatments, non-treatments, non-resuscitation, that type of stuff, um, you might not want to live um, you know, without capacity long term. And if that’s one thing you want, it’s something you can talk to your attorney about as well.

[21:19] Sammie: I I found the process was was, you know, the people could talk you through it. It sounds complicated, and it is when you look at the documents, but actually when someone runs you through it and the decisions that you’re making, it’s kind of it’s you know, it makes sense. And uh and I co-signed, yeah. Um, so it helped because there was always somebody else like sort of helping in in explaining with you, um, which yeah, it was was really interesting. But the way you see a will is like not a legal document, you sort of see it as like a wishes of that individual, right? And then power of attorney can be affected while that person is still alive and equally uh post-death as well. Yeah. So it’s kind of uh a bit more of a Flexible thing over here, will is like this is what I want.

[22:04] Sam Grice: Well, the the attorney doesn’t transfer to death, but the if you’re the executor of the will, that’s when your powers would come in place. But the um the yeah, so you’re you’re it’s affecting you while you’re alive. So so it’s um it it’s important to have because it could even be just, you know, you you you fall down some stairs and you know, something some these things happen. And it’s just nice to know that someone around you you trust is going to make those decisions. Um especially with your parents, you know. So if you’ve got a somewhat of a complex relationship with your family, um, you know, you you might not want your parents coming in and making decisions, and they might be able to, and they might go to court and they might say, Well, actually, he’s our son, and we we think this is the best outcome, even if it’s not what you wanted. And so the the documents just make it legally binding. And and as you said, they’re not they’re not the the language is a bit uh confusing, but um, once you get through it, it’s it’s very important.

[22:53] Sammie: Um I I you you kind of said and I this really struck with me, you wish that your mum had had created like a video, yeah, and just like a and and just said it all in five minutes on it, and it would have been an a really good thing to have. Um and do you feel like that is something that uh gets lost in the processes when you’re just say dealing with a normal solicitor on this? It’s less personal, it feels very legal and binding and all very straight. Whereas where you have like a video, uh you can see what they they want to see, right? And and and feel it too.

[23:33] Sam Grice: Yeah, I think it’s I think the industry, a lot of the legal profession has lost the kind of human side of it because and it is, I mean, it’s an important process. It is, they are legal documents, it needs to be done correctly. Um, you know, for example, if the language is vague, it can be challenged, and again, you don’t want this. But but I think, yeah, I mean, what what is a will? A will is in my opinion, is the it’s the last messages to your family. Um, and yes, this is the house, this is how it’s owned, and this is where I want it to go, is one part of it. But um, what’s your advice? And like, you know, I’m my mum’s not going to be there for for if I get married or if I um, you know, I had a son, so she wasn’t there for the birth of my son. So um she would love my son, but um, but but um, you know, if I’ve got nothing from her to him, and it would have in hindsight, and I’ve got stuff down for my dad because he’s alive. And so I if I if you’re not sitting around thinking about death every day, but I think um if they had gone through our services when they had written their wills, um, I would have that stuff. And so I think it’s important to, yeah, you can’t, I can’t change what had happened, but now I know that my clients that are coming through our our business have the have these things. And so when they do die, um their families have them. So um, so yeah, I I think the legal part is important, the financial part is important, but also your legacy and what what do you mean and where’s your advice? And I’m lucky because I come on a lot of these podcasts and things, but so if anything was ever to happen, and you, you’re on them all the time. So if anything was ever to happen to you, um, you know, you’ve got that that record of it, yeah, of who you are and you what you think, your laughter, your your jokes, your mannerisms. Um a lot of people don’t have that. So I don’t have a I don’t have any footage of mum more than 10 seconds, which and my and my memory’s not the best, and it fades. I mean, I just said to you before, which seems crazy, but mum died 10 years ago this year. Um it feels like it was yesterday, um, but it wasn’t. Uh yeah, you I mean, you f forget them. It’s it’s not not them, but their the the memories become softer. It’s just um when my dad explains it, is kind of like keep photocopying a picture, and then eventually, unfortunately, it just loses its clarity. Um, and I don’t have anything. And we’ve now got the ability in our pockets to film and record. Um, and we take a lot of photos, but people stopped taking a lot of videos. I don’t know, I don’t know why, but anyway.

[25:42] Sammie: Because it used to be the thing come cord, isn’t that?

[25:44] Sam Grice: Yeah, well, though, I mean I’ve got heaps, uh a lot of footage from when I was young of me that my mum and dad filmed, but she hated cameras, so she was always made an effort of getting off either behind it or out of it. You could see her scattered away in some videos, but um, yeah, so very little of of her. Um, I hear I’ve got her voice and her laughter uh lots of them because she’s behind the camera. Um, but yeah, it’s just um and and and even having footage, but actually sitting with someone and talking about so we have these legacy videos where we sit with someone for about an hour, just like this, really, and talk about their life and their memories. And I did one with my dad recently when he was up, you know. We talked about his he was in the in London in the 80s, which was a crazy experience. And and digging into mum, and what was she like then? And oh, I didn’t even like they were hippies in the 80s, probably everyone was hippies in the 80s, but but um, but just like hearing that from him firsthand, yeah. Um, you know, those memories go and and and and you know, mum’s died, dad is still alive, but also dad could lose capacity, and that happens, especially as they get older, and and of course memories don’t become as crisp. So talk to me about the legacy box because it’s it’s it’s brilliant. Yeah, it’s so cool.

[26:49] Sammie: Yeah, I’d love to know all about it.

[26:51] Sam Grice: Yeah, so we we’ve we we came from someone in our team, Eliza, and she she um her her grandfather had died and he’d created this folder with all sorts of stuff in it. Um uh for when he for when he goes, basically. That was what it was called, I think, for when I go folder. Um leaky tap and stuff yeah, leaky tap, and he wanted a comedy sketch, and he’d had actually written the comedy sketch at the funeral and all sorts of stuff. And so we kind of took that and then we did a lot of consumer research about well, what are what do people miss? So, what do people miss? Um, and what do they care about? As you can probably tell, a lot of it, the financial stuff’s way down the list. It’s like their voice, their smell, their advice. Um, you know, what what advice would my mum give me when I was gonna get married? Like, what’d she say to me? Like, I don’t know. And so um the box, the the top part of the box is all your legal stuff. So a space for your will, um, copies of your power of attorney, anything you think is important. We guide you what we think is important, you can put that in there so that if you were to die, at least your your someone who is around you knows where to go find that stuff, and it’s in one place. So that and it has to be the the will has to be physical document, it can’t be a digital scan. So a lot of people don’t know that either. Um so it’s got to be a physical document, and so keep it somewhere under the bed or somewhere in the shelf. And then the bottom part of that is is the legacy part, which you pull out and it’s got a dictaphone, you can record your voice. We actually give you cue cards on like what to questions you we we’ve asked thousands to customers and what we think they think is interesting. Um, you know, what was your what was your first memory as a child and things like that. And so, and and we encourage people to use the dictaphone, record it, um, and uh, and then um we’ve got you know your funeral songs, funeral planning, all that, and these little cards you can write on. So, so the idea being is um you get your legal stuff sorted because that’s ultimately really important, and we don’t want people to procrastinate doing that to you know fill out all this advice stuff which might take a bit of time. But so what we do is we when we send the documents, when it’s finished, that’s when we send these these boxes, and then we say for the next five years, why don’t you just slowly fill this up and put photos in it? Or if you see something, can and yeah, we see people really engage with it. Um, and then the legacy video is the there’s another service we offer, which is the people that really get into it, and we can come and film them in their homes or wherever they want. And some of the footage and what they want to talk about is is amazing. Like we had a mad 90-year-old, 95-year-old woman, I think, on the other day, and she was all dressed up and had a uh glass of champagne, and she was just talking about her stories from you know, it’s interesting stories. It’s like they lived in a different time, and so why not ask them this stuff? Um, they want to talk about it, and then obviously now she’s got all that raw footage, um, if anything happens, which will eventually unfortunately happen. But her grandkids and children have all that footage, so um, so yeah, we’re really trying to reshape it because as you said, the will seems quite transactional and stale, probably not that inspiring to run out into. And so, what we’re hoping to do is say that death doesn’t have to be as more we get morbid all the time, but it’s not morbid, it’s it’s actually the opposite of morbid. If you’ve seen like our content and what we deal with people, it’s the most human stuff you’ll see. It’s not morbid, it’s just it’s emotional. Um, and I I like the phrase that um that grief’s the tax on love, and that’s all it is. It’s just it’s emotional because it’s a tax and it’s it’s because you love the person, so it’s and we avoid stuff we we struggle with, and that means people don’t write their wills, and that causes constant. So, and and as we’ve said, so because you find it emotional and you don’t write your will because it’s it’s it’s it’s hard to think of a world you’re not in it, you’re causing conflict for your family, which would be the last thing you wanted. Like the last thing my mum would have wanted is any conflict. I’m sure the last person people are that 50% of people that deal with us, the last thing they would want is these families to fight. Um, but because they haven’t done it. So we always say, get it done. Everyone should have a will, everyone should have a will, in my opinion.

[30:40] Sammie: So you guys obviously working on this every single day. Um, like what how long does it take?

[30:46] Sam Grice: Yeah. It it I would say it depends because it depends on a lot of things around your estate, but in general, um, you know, 15, 20 minutes, um, but even less than that. That and that’s with thinking. I mean, we could probably do a will for you now, proper top line stuff and go through most of the questions in five five minutes. Yeah, I think so. Let’s go for it.

[31:07] Sammie: All right, let’s do it, let’s do it.

[31:08] Sam Grice: Yeah. I mean, the well, okay, we’ll we’ll start at the top. So um, I won’t ask, well, I we’ll sort this out afterwards. I’ll get a bit more information from you, and then we can we can actually draft a will up for you. So I won’t ask all your your personal information, um, as in your your your details. But um, I mean the first one is name date of birth, everybody. Your name, date of birth, address, um, uh social uh what is your nationality. Yeah, so uh we won’t go into that much detail.

[31:33] Sammie: But suddenly someone’s in my Halifax account doing all sorts of stuff.

[31:37] Sam Grice: But but the first but the first thing is is um is your uh um estate and then and then your relationship status is quite important. So I mean you said you’re with a partner, so you’re unmarried.

[31:48] Sammie: Unmarried, yeah.

[31:49] Sam Grice: You have children? No children. Okay. Um and then um and then you so maybe so that’s that’s probably all we need to know for that. Then in regards to your assets, like you don’t have to tell me the too many of the details, but like what’s your general estate? Like a property, I’m sure, and then what what else have you got? Property, businesses, yep.

[32:10] Sammie: Um, and savings investments, personal, um yeah, yes, pretty much.

[32:15] Sam Grice: And then your your assets, so your house, it’s so it’s co-owned, I should it was co-owned joint joint um joint. Joint tenants or tenants in common?

[32:24] Sammie: No, uh tenants in common.

[32:25] Sam Grice: Tenants in common, yeah. So that’s so that’s the decision. So that’s probably what uh Claude was telling you. So um because you’re tenants in common and you’re not married, yeah, that would be a problem on death. Um so your parents would would would probably get that and test the series. Um and then so I guess well the the the question then is so and and we’ll work back from from how to do that, but so what do you want to happen? So if you were to die, if you were to leave this podcast, Touchwood, um, get hit by a by a bus, um it happens.

[32:52] Sammie: That would be typical, wouldn’t it? Here it is, guys. Here’s the real life.

[32:56] Sam Grice: I I actually I actually had a I had a child recently, and so my will, I had a will, but it was out of date. Um, and I thought it would be very ironic if I was to not up to date my will. So I was like, I’ve got to do this now because I can only imagine what what the the fallout would be if I didn’t. But so now my will is up to date. But um, but so what so what do you want to happen? So if you were to die, if you get hit by a car today, yeah. So you’ve got your your house is jointly owned, we can go into that in a second, but uh all the other stuff like your assets, your investments, what do you want, how do you want that split? So do you want so I’ll give you some examples that can either all go to your partner, um, go to your partner, maybe some of your siblings, like what do you personally want? Like that, what yeah. So that’s the first hard question.

[33:33] Sammie: Yeah, I thought about this a lot because and I knew we were gonna do this. Um, so I thought it was fair for because obviously we’re we co-owned the house, so I think the house should move to my partner. Yep. And then uh my assets as uh I’m very close to my sister, and um I’ve got two other sisters as well, um, who I’m also very close with. I would like like the assets portion almost 25 with across three sisters and then partner within assets as well. Yeah. Does that make sense?

[34:04] Sam Grice: So say that again.

[34:05] Sammie: So you want your three sisters to get so three sisters to get 25% each, and my partner to get the final 25%. Yeah, okay, fine. And then like I feel like that’s a a fair distribution of it. Okay. Um, because I feel like with the hard part of thing is like we thought about it, you would just leave everything to my partner, but then it’s like actually those guys would need that leg up. So I’m sort of seeing it like, do they do they need it too as well? And then that’s quite helpful for them.

[34:33] Sam Grice: Okay, and we can get all the details of them as well. Because when when you’re writing a will, so we won’t do that now again, we won’t share that information, but what what what you would need is their name. And so when when people are writing their will before they start writing their will, it’s important that they’ll need their name, their addresses, things like that. They’re identifying metrics, so we know okay, who who your sisters would be and where they are, and we can track them down actually. Because sometimes, hey, you’ve got some inheritance. Um, and so so that’s that’s and that’s actually fairly common what you’ve said. So a lot of people want to do that. Um, have you discussed that if that’s does that mirror what your partner wants, or has she got different differing views? Because that’s quite common as well.

[35:07] Sammie: So um, if you’re listening, uh plea we need to have that chat. Yeah, I think it’s uh um pretty obvious. We we discussed having the wheels in place. I think definitely the house is on the table. Yeah, I think we both slightly mentioned because she’s got a big family her side, I think she would see her assets a lot of largely move over to her family. And I’m like, we were both like, yeah, cool. Yeah, um, I think if we married and changed again, I think that would need a further update and a re-establishment, and definitely with kids. Yes. Um, that would need rethinking. But I think if something was to happen to us as of today, like that’s what we would want.

[35:44] Sam Grice: And and another common question which we we need to cover, and I’m hope maybe she is watching, but do you do you do you intend to get married in the in the sh in the in the short term, so in the next you know, six to twelve months? The the wedding? Yeah, would you get married? No, no, not the wedding. No, fine. The only reason I say is because the the marriage nullifies the will. So um so if you’re going straight away. Yeah. So yes. So um, so if you’re going to get married, the reason I ask that is because if people are going to get married and they’re listening to this, you can um you can m update your will in a way and you can draft your will in a way of as if it’s still valid on marriage. Oh, cool. Yes. So um, so it’s um that’s why I ask it. Um not prying too much into your personal life, but so if you’re planning on getting married and if those wishes marry, because as an example, if you get married, everything goes to your wife. Right. Um, so so um unless you state otherwise. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

[36:40] Sammie: Because then you would also want to agree that. Yeah.

[36:42] Sam Grice: So yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So the marriage, the marriage would nullif nullify that. So it takes that 25 for the for the sisters, say, for example. Well it doesn’t nullify. So it remember that once you because once you’re married, your the estate’s split, right? So your assets are now 50 cents.

[36:56] Sammie: The three, two, two.

[36:58] Sam Grice: Yeah, yeah, that that but but the the assets also split. Right. So she owns half of everything you own. And so, yeah, just how it all works would change. So the the the marriage changes your will. So, so um you when you get married, you should definitely redraft your will.

[37:12] Sammie: Can I ask, in not that I’m considering this in any way, shape, or form, but uh, a pre-nump agreement within that frame, how does that work? Yeah, because businesses are then say, you know, married into someone who has a business and doesn’t want to protect their want to protect their assets. They’ve built pre-the-relationship.

[37:28] Sam Grice: Yes, that was that’s kind of outside, I would say, our law because that’s the family law, but yeah, but yeah, that’s that’s another legal process you can go through. So people often do it at once, so they’ll get a um, they’ll do their will and their prenups at the same time, um, especially before marriage. So yeah.

[37:42] Sammie: I’m not considering that because she’s been there since day one of doing this business. So I think it’d be pretty savage.

[37:48] Sam Grice: But but again, it’s it’s it depends what people’s views are, and what we always say is um, but have those conversations um in advance. And and it might be, you know, on marriage, do we want certain things to change? Um, maybe not. And so um, but but yeah, if you’re gonna write your will and you’re you’re planning on getting married, um, and there’s quite an interesting fact as well for anyone listening that’s been divorced. But so when you’re when you get divorced, same thing, right? So your um your will in your if you get divorced, um in the the way the will law works is that your ex-wife or ex-husband is treated as if they were deceased. Right, right. Yeah. So a lot of people would probably like that. No, ex-wife being deceased, but um, and that um and then that means so when you’ve got like substitute beneficiaries. So for example, if you said, I want everything to go to my wife, um, if my wife dies before me, I want everything to go to my children, then that’s what would happen. So they would treat as if your wife had died before you. Um, that might not be what you want. So, so even so a lot of people assume, oh, well, the divorce doesn’t matter because now they’re out of the will. True, but what happens as a substitute to that might not be what you want. Uh, and so it’s important. So um marriage or divorce, um, marriage, divorce, death, uh um, those three events, you should always relook at your will. Um, and if you’ve got a confusion, talk to a solicitor or someone about what what happens now and is this will still valid? And if it’s been drafted correctly, it hopefully should be fine regardless of what happens, but not always the case.

[39:15] Sammie: So we’ve just kind of established the the framework of what would want. Is there any other detail that goes into this? Like, do you then go into like possessions and things like that?

[39:26] Sam Grice: Um you you can do. So if if um you can uh we we don’t have to go into that today, but I would say when we send you over the document, um you can we can write that in, but it’d be uh any any specific assets you have, um, items that you want to go to specific people. So it might be your watch or your your laptop or whatever, um, you can list it and say, I want that to go to this person and this person. Um, and that’s your and that’s your positions, and they transfer um to those people as well.

[39:52] Sammie: Um but it just comes into my head. Let’s I imagine this has happened before, but let’s say, for example, take a laptop as an it is a prime example, right? You say, Oh, I want this to go to John, but the person in control of that laptop today doesn’t want it to go to John and refuses. Has that happened before? Like, I don’t want to pass that position to that person and I’m keeping control of it.

[40:16] Sam Grice: Is that your ultimately the executors, yeah? Executives, yeah. I mean, it would be depending on this, there’s depends how it’s been drafted and if it’s been in in letters of wishes or it’s in the world, and there’s there’s lots of conditions on it. But uh theoretically, if it’s if it’s owed to John, it’s yeah, it’s it would be theft keeping it, it’s not yours, it’s not your possession. Wow. Um, so yeah, um again, that can be the thing where um, yeah, it it gets complex when things are gifted. And giftings, gifting in life also can make things complicated. So it’s better to document it and why and when, um, because it could be seen as a loan, like, oh yeah, you know, dad gave you that painting, but that was never yours. That was just, you know, now he’s died. We want like if you know had a Van Gogh or something, you might be like, we’re gonna sell that. Um, that wasn’t yours, it was just he let you put it up in the house, it’s not a gift. So if you’re gonna do something like that, it’s really important document it because if it’s a if it’s a gift, and there’s obviously tax implications for certain stuff as well. But but yeah, it’s always best to just document everything and write it down. Um, and then so a bit, but yeah, I mean your estate settlement’s quite straightforward. I would say you don’t have children, um, but um do you have any dependents? Anyone financially dependent on you? No, not anymore.

[41:20] Sammie: Yeah, yeah.

[41:21] Sam Grice: Um, that can happen sometimes up and down, so it’s always a good thing to think about if you’ve got someone who’s a dependent on you and what you want to happen with that. Um, but if you don’t have a dependent, so you’ve got a reasonably straightforward estate at the moment. Um uh the Oh, I see.

[41:36] Sammie: So for example, I was sending uh like paying some of my nan’s bills and keeping her afloat. Yep. Um and if I wanted that relationship to continue, that would that needs to be honored within that process.

[41:48] Sam Grice: Yeah, so in a case like that, so if you’ve got a dependent, um either young or old, um, uh, or someone with a disability, there’s all sorts of reasons this happens. Of course. Yeah, that’s when you start getting into world trusts. So um, so uh, you know, a trust is effectively um, you know my next question. Yeah, well, it’s it’s effectively uh um you set up a trust and a trust has a set of wishes in it. So in that case, it would be um I want my estate to pay my grand’s rent until um she dies. Um, and then that would be set up by your executor. And we’ll get into executors in a minute. Um and once that trust is established, um, it would then pay your grand’s rent.

[42:21] Sammie: Um, cool. Because this is what you see when John turns 18, he gets my X, Y, and Z. And is this happening in the trust?

[42:28] Sam Grice: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that’s a will trust. Um, and so very, very common in children. So the so I was going to get into children and guardians, even though you don’t have them just for listeners. Um, but yeah, so there’s two things, two things with children’s two big questions you’ve got to make. First is who do you want to look after them? Yeah. Um, I would say that um that’s a a big conversation. Not uh because often people disagree. So oh, I’d love my sister. I don’t want your sister to raise my kids, and then you go into so that’s so it’s um so uh and and what do you mean you don’t like my sister? And then so the true you know, the the true feelings come out when it’s my my son’s life. I always thought he was a little shit, yeah. You always said you liked my brother. What do you mean he’s you can’t have so um uh so so guardianship is is one that that should be discussed. Um I like to think it so people think wheels are final, so it’s your last well, it’s called the last will in testament, right? But um, and that because they overthink about it, they delay it. But what I mean there is um what I always say is the the best situation for where you are right now in your life. So it might be, for example, um you’ve got a young child and there’s you know a sibling that both partners like, but they’re quite young. So maybe they’re 25 and haven’t been married yet. So it’s like in 10 years they’d be a great guardian, but right now they’re a little early in their life. But maybe the older sister with children would be the best place for that child now. And so that’s where the debates start to happen and can actually delay the process. So, what I always say is think about you, you know, walking outside and getting hit by a bus now, not because people delay it. So they’ll say, Oh, well, what if in five years though, and she had a house or what If she’d been married and I didn’t like the partner, you know, something like that. So I always just say what’s what’s best right now. So if you were to leave the house now, get hot bus. Who who’s the best? Who’s the best person to be the guardian? So that’s one part of it. And it can take a while. So before you start, so you asked how long it can take to draft a will. If you know the answer is not very long, but if you don’t, that could take weeks to decide. So you start dragging on and then people forget about it and go, you should get back to our will. The second is what you mentioned, which is when they get your assets. So most people with parents probably don’t trust their children too much with financial assets until a certain age. Um some do, but I would say that 18 is quite young to inherit. So that’s the law. So if you don’t put a will trust in and you just just leave it to your child, um, they’ll inherit at 18 with no conditions. Yeah. And that might be what you want. It maybe it depends on the estate size, but I would probably recommend thinking about that, whether that’s the right decision.

[44:56] Sammie: Um one of my close friends came into quite a lot of money when we were 18. Yeah. And well, it was a lot of money at the time. It is a lot of money, it was in hundreds of thousands of pounds. I mean, he he did eventually end up sorting himself out after a stint and rehab and like a whole, but 18 with all that money, he just went off the rails.

[45:15] Sam Grice: Yeah. It’s dangerous. For an 18-year-old, 20 grand’s a lot of money. I mean, I mean, uh, 20 grand’s a lot of money for everyone, right? So um, um, I mean, the average house, what average house in the country is worth like 330,000. So most people have two kids. So you’re talking, yeah, 150,000 estate um goes to your 18-year-old. So so it’s uh is a lot of money. Um, so so that’s where you get into all trust. So this is where you know your conditions uh come into place. Um get hyper specific.

[45:42] Sammie: You must do X and then all Y or because you see it in the movies, yeah. He has to get an A in um physiology at you at college.

[45:51] Sam Grice: Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, you yeah, you can be that specific. I mean, ultimately it’s the trustee’s decision. Um, so you you you kind of outline like what your intention is and what you want to happen. So um, for example, I I would assume everyone would agree in a in a comment because you go to you can go to court and and challenge, right? But so I mean, I think everyone would assume that if um if if you know I’ve got a son, if I left my estate to my son, I I’ve decided that I want him to get um half when he’s 25 and half when he’s 35. That’s how I’ve I’ve done it. I might change it a bit later. Um but um if something goes terribly wrong in his life at 19, of course I want him to have access to capital. Like if he’s just desperate and he’s sensible, uh, and that’s where the trustee comes in. So you can select the trustee like a guardian. So for example, I could select my sister as the trustee, and I would say, look, he not until he’s 25, but if he needs it, or there’s an opportunity, or he finds a dream home and he’s really a sensible 24-year-old. He’s not like gonna go to Vegas and he’s really sensible and he needs this, or he needs some money. I’m an entrepreneur. Maybe he needs some startup capital, and I would always have given him that. So, so you can be specific, but you can also say, like, the trust, the trustee you select has a little bit of leeway around on on what happens and why. So you kid would never be, you know, not get financial health, you know, if there’s a treatment he needs or something, of course that person can get those assets. But but that’s why selecting a um a professional trustee can help because they’re quite rational, um, or someone you really trust, similar to your lasting power of attorney, someone you trust to make would would align, would be aligned with your own financial decisions. So like my sister, for example, I think I would trust her to be able to make a good decision for my son if he needed money early, and equally know that he would she would challenge him if he wanted it to go to Vegas or go on a but I really want to go on this cool trip. And it’s like that’s not what your dad would have wanted. Um, and so so that’s a trust. Um, and it can be the same for you if you’re wanting to give you said you wanted to give to your partner, you could put some conditions around that. Um, um, remaraging, there’s all sorts of stuff in there. So um, so yeah.

[47:50] Sammie: Oh, god, yeah. It oh my honestly, it goes so many ways, doesn’t it? Yep, yeah. You have to really think about it.

[47:55] Sam Grice: Yeah, yeah. That’s why I mean it’s hard, but we won’t get into too many ways because then we’ll never finish your will. But um, but yeah, it it it it it can get reasonably complicated.

[48:03] Sammie: Um so a lot of um parents want a gift to um Well, I would I think if I went today and she didn’t remarry, I would be really sad for her. Yeah, exactly. So I think I wouldn’t put that stipulation in, but I imagine some people might find that actually no, you can’t have that if you remarry somebody else.

[48:17] Sam Grice: Like yeah, but what but sometimes parents don’t like partners and then they’re worried about well, if their child dies and then their partner remarries someone they don’t like, or does the partner get stuff? So it can get you know, it can depend what you want to do, but um and and size as well. Correct. I mean, if you’re talking a big estate, it gets more complex. If it’s if it’s a house and a bit of cash, um generally generally people are quite aligned to you for what it’s worth. Like the house is just a house, and that’s even though it’s a substantial asset, you know, that let’s just it’s yours or it’s mine because you don’t you you wouldn’t want your partner to be kicked out of the home. Um and there’s um and there’s a thing you can do there if you’ve got uh if you’re older, so if you’ve got a say second relationship and you’re a little um say 70 in your 70s, um what you can actually do is you can set up a will trust that things like um the the partner can live in the home until she dies, and then um and then when that partner dies, the house is then inherited and sold. So there’s all sorts of stuff you can do with that. When you start for anyone listening online, when you start to get into those types of things, it’s always best, in my opinion, speak to a professional rather than doing it yourself, because sometimes doing it yourself um with Claude or or ChPT um you can have un unknown consequences with tax and things like that. So better to talk professional, but yeah, you can get into the There’s no way I would have done that.

[49:34] Sammie: And I was asking it, what happens if X uh, because I just found that really interesting because I wasn’t going to read those laws, and I was like, yeah.

[49:43] Sam Grice: And there’s and there’s tax consequences as well, and that and taxes can get quite complex, and so it’s important to um to understand that. But but from from an aura of time, and because you’re a state, you don’t have children, um, um, and any dependents. Um, so your gram was a good example. That could have been a dependent that you wanted to include some some financial support for. Yeah. Um then the next question, which is kind of the main question, um uh left. The main question? Main question left. Okay. Uh is um uh yeah, who you want to be the executor. So um this is this is actually a very important question. Um, and the reason it’s an important question is because being an executor is a lot of work. You’ve just talked, spoken about it. I think you’re doing it at the moment. Um, it’s a lot of work. Uh it takes a lot of time. Um, it it um involves lots of um, I think you need to be financially literate because you’re dealing with a lot of um payments and taxes, and you you’ve got obligations as an executor to make sure that it’s all correct. Um, HMIC, um, it’s it’s your job to make sure there’s no tax, and if you’ve made mistakes, it’s not good. Um also very emotionally intelligent, um, as you know, because um, yeah. You need it. You need it because you do it, can it? And so if you’re selecting a very fun, so so a lot of time people select a very financially sound person to be the executor that has very low emotional intelligence, which can actually cause more conflict um because they’re just matter-of-fact and stuff and they’re maybe not that good. Um, and so you you it is quite hard to find someone that’s both of those. Um, what I would say is is professionals are generally quite good at that. So I was just about to say, could you pick a professional yeah? So that’s what we do. So we’re the professional executor in about 80% of the wills we draft. Um, so we’re doing this year probably about 80,000 wills, and we’d probably be the executor on around 60,000 of those. So very, very common. Wow. Um, and so we what we suggest for what it’s worth is we suggest us and someone in the family, so we can kind of we do most of the grunt work and they’re there with oversight of what’s going on. So what we generally suggest it’s a co-executorship. You can select most multiple.

[51:41] Sammie: Oh, right.

[51:42] Sam Grice: What I would say is a lot of people select their three kids or two kids. Sometimes that’s it if you’re if your children have always agreed throughout their whole life on every matter, which I think most parents know they don’t, then maybe, but generally um have a discussion about it.

[51:58] Sammie: So yeah, I think I would definitely, my view, it’d be professional and then a sensible member of the family who’s got their heads weared on, basically.

[52:05] Sam Grice: Yeah. Well, so for you, who would you want? So it would be between professional or your sister. You could select your partner.

[52:12] Sammie: No, I’d probably pick my older sister.

[52:14] Sam Grice: Yeah, yeah. I was gonna say that because um she’ll be dealing with a lot of stuff, um, and she’ll be it’ll be very emotional. So a lot of people do select partner, and I I I normally not advise, uh, but like it’s just remember what they’ll be going through. And it’s kind of a weird one because every decision, even if it’s like random, uh, they’ve found another assinel can be really emotional triggering.

[52:35] Sammie: Well, I love my partner to bits, but she she’s emotional. Yeah. And whereas her heart honestly will cry at East Enders uh when they walk out of a pub, you know.

[52:45] Sam Grice: So and all your belongings, exactly going through it. And so so having a professional executor and like a sister or a cousin is is normally what I suggest to like uh someone you really trust in your family uh or a free or a friend. Um but if you’re gonna select someone, make sure you talk to them because uh um someone get dumped on their doorstep and that which is a is an odd part of them because you don’t have to run it past them. As an executor, you can step down, you don’t have to do it. That’s another thing I would say, but a lot of people don’t know. So if you randomly get a call one day and say, by the way, Uncle Frank selected you as the executor, if you’re really busy or you’re stressed or whatever and you don’t want to do it, or you just don’t want to do it, um, you can pronounce as an executor, which which is or you can go get a legal company to help you do it. But um, but yeah, the executors are a very important question. It’s something that um yeah, people often don’t think much about and go, oh yeah, you can do it. Um, but I would say have a good discussion. And equally with you, so discuss that with your partner because she, for example, she might not might hate one of your sisters.

[53:42] Sammie: Um, not saying she does, but no, no, they’re like best friends. Yeah, but I know my sister’s like a machine. Yeah, yeah. And everybody has, you know, looked at it actually. She works uh for an agency up the road here, and she’s just like one of those people, you know, it’s just like nothing phases her, she’s always got like head screwed on, knows what’s going down, and is very emotionally aware.

[54:01] Sam Grice: So no, she she sounds like a great one. So yeah, the the before you sign your will, you know, the discussion you mean to have is with with your with your sister and then with your partner, just a little. Oh, ultimately it’s not your partner’s decision because it’s your will, but just be like, I’ve decided I want her to be the executor with a professional. So you could select octopus, for example, or or another professional. Um, and then on on the on your death, we would step in. The advantage of that professional as well is we can then just take your, you know, in this hate in this situation, we would take your sister through everything that’s about to happen. What do you want to do? We can do it. We can, and it’s just so it’s just helpful having that friendly advisor next to you that’s going to guide you.

[54:35] Sammie: It makes perfect sense. I think I would feel much more comfortable in that regard. Like dumping it all on someone’s lap is savage.

[54:41] Sam Grice: Especially without warning, happens quite a lot. Yeah. Um, and so people are like, I didn’t even know about that. And then sometimes people then leave some of the estate to the executor as like a gift of thank you for doing it, which also causes conflict with family. Sometimes they’re like, Why have you got some money and like you’re the executor? This seems odd. It’s like, I don’t know, I didn’t know about this. Um, so yeah, again, people are notoriously bad at not talking about their wills, so they write them in secrecy, not knowing that. And it might like intellectually make sense, but then there’s this chaos around it.

[55:10] Sammie: So I always say it’s kind of like an element of like, hey, surprise. This is like in a way, like I think it kind of is like your last laugh in a way.

[55:20] Sam Grice: Potentially. I mean, some people do some funny stuff in their wills. Yeah. Um, like we’ve had a guy wanted to mix his, wanted his family to mix his ashes with cheese, molten cheese into like a cannonball and fire it out over some Scottish aisle or something. So um, whether that’s to your point on enforceability, not always the case, but they uh the executive would need to make a decision if that was possible. But so you get a lot of people do that. I think their humour comes out in wills. Um, interesting. Yeah. But I think the surprise, or I mean, well without going into too many details, we see a lot of um people with multiple partners that maybe other partners do not know about. Um second families. Oh, and they come out of the woodworks. Well, that well, sometimes they sometimes someone will we’ve seen a state split between the mistress and the second family and the wife in the family. And we, as the professional, have to have that conversation. So we have to sit down with the wife and explain actually there is another beneficiary here that’s um that’s not you. And that is probably that is yeah.

[56:16] Sammie: It I mean that is rough, man.

[56:18] Sam Grice: Yeah, that’s that in that circumstance a professional executive is what a good idea. But yeah, no, so we have to we have to we have to to deal with that. Um and yeah. How?

[56:28] Sammie: How how would you? I mean, yeah, I suppose it’s a lot of people.

[56:30] Sam Grice: Oh, it’s got to be emotional and intelligent, which is frankly, this is the this is what’s happened. Um we don’t we generally don’t get much context either.

[56:37] Sammie: I suppose it’s like sort of sort in a way, so that moment we’re like, there’s no easy way to say this. No. So I need I do need to just say it. There’s a fourth beneficiary, yeah. And it’s not you. Yeah.

[56:47] Sam Grice: Yeah, so so yeah, we mean I I luckily it’s not my job. Um my team deals with that though, but but um yeah, so so sometimes sometimes, but um so but but that’s I only learned the other day, by the way, that a thruple is a thing.

[56:58] Sammie: Right, I didn’t know yeah, oh you didn’t know about this. Like th a three couple, three. There’s three and a but that’s not legal. No, so one is a it’s a but it’s a it’s an actual thing.

[57:09] Sam Grice: There you go.

[57:09] Sammie: And I was like, okay, we’re going somewhere now. And I get and this is all new to me.

[57:13] Sam Grice: So I imagine in that regard it might be quite complicated if there’s my well if one’s if you’re married to one or not, then yeah, it would get a bit complicated. Yeah. Until you can marry two of them. Um, but yeah, even more complicated if you haven’t told your your other spouse about this this family or beneficiaries. Um and that’s where antistase is interesting, obviously, because um, yeah, if if you’ve had a if you’ve had a child, um three children and a fourth child, uh, on death that fourth child might inherit um because you haven’t got your will. Um and then so yeah, the the children could sometimes, oh, we didn’t know about this this child. Um, and sometimes the parents may know about it, adopted a kid out, there’s all sorts of all sorts of accuracy and wills, but um, or not having wills in that case, but um, but but yeah, so I mean, so if we if we people have some mints on lives, don’t they? One of the weird things, interesting things about what we deal with is yeah, we see uh both pre and post-death, we see we’ve seen nearly everything.

[58:07] Sammie: Yeah, yeah.

[58:07] Sam Grice: I won’t go into the details of some of the stuff, but we’ve seen everything. Um and and we see a lot of you know um people trying to extort money and and and do, you know, the neighbour, the neighbor suddenly the 100% exec uh 100% beneficiary and stuff. It’s a bit so you you do get that. So so as a professional firm, we we we keep an eye on that to make sure it’s sound and and not no one’s under any pressure or under influence.

[58:30] Sammie: So unfortunately, that’s kind of the situation that we’re in. Right. And so there’s uh two people in this situation that are saying that they had both had conversations at different points and that there was a definite change of the will and there’s not, and it’s like legally binding documents saying what’s happening. Yeah, and they’re all like complete and utter loggerheads about it.

[58:52] Sam Grice: Yeah, and and sometimes that happens because the the person didn’t write the will, maybe the will was drafted and stored somewhere else.

[58:58] Sammie: So the hard part is that like then you get the asset of the house which has a mortgage on, and you know, then like what do we do? We’re gonna sell the house, then the house, then they’re paying into a house they live in to keep that going while they sell that asset. That’s it’s just a nightmare, and that’s what’s happening at the moment. It’s just dragging on and on and on.

[59:16] Sam Grice: Yeah. I think they’re don’t quote me on this, but I think it’s yeah, there’s a there’s a million empty probate properties in the country.

[59:23] Sammie: Probate’s the next question for you because it’s this word that gets hit with you, you’re grieving. Um what is it and why is it such a nightmare sometimes for people?

[59:33] Sam Grice: Yeah, so so what people think probate is and what probate is when they say probate, ultimately what you’re getting is a grant of probate. Um, and that is a form that the executor is gonna apply for. And what that is doing is just confirming the will. Um, and so we’ve had wills on back of serial packets um come to us. So you don’t need a lawyer, you can draft it on a piece of paper, sign it, so it can be valid. So what you’re doing is you’re just validating that this is a this is valid, that this can be held up in court, um, and um and it’s the most up-to-date one. So we do checks to make sure other solicitor firms don’t have any that oh, actually he wrote another one more recently and stored it with this person. So just because you find a will at home might not be the most up-to-date one. So what the gr the application to the grant is kind of just confirming what the will is and that it’s valid. Sometimes they’re tampered with. So someone takes a page out, um, maybe that page where they’ve disinherited a child or done something like that. But yeah, so um, so it just checks like that, make sure the staples haven’t been tampered with and it’s yeah.

[1:00:29] Sammie: Well, the 25 turned into a 30. Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

[1:00:32] Sam Grice: That’s why all pages, if you’re gonna do it yourself, make sure the pages are numbered um so people can’t tinker. Um and and yeah, make sure it’s bound correctly, hasn’t been unbound. Because sometimes um we get rules that are unbound. That so it’s you send it off with um to the registry and just say, like, this is what’s happened, and they might say, No, we don’t think this is a valid document. Um, and then and so like copies and stuff like that. Um, so so what you’re what you’re effectively doing is you’re you’re you’re applying for a grant of probate um to the government, and what that’s doing is giving you um permission to now act as part of the estate. So that’s the like official pro process what uh when someone says probate, what generally what a how a lawyer would view it is a grant of probate. So once that grant is issued, similar to the power of attorney process, you now are allowed to make the decisions for that estate, but you have some obligations. Um, but then you know, for example, you can sell the property and you can start to liquidate the assets and the stocks and all the stuff you want to do as an executor. So that grant process has been issued. What people, when they say probate, what they mean is more that latter stuff. So the the actual probate’s getting the grant, but the administration of the estate, which is the next part, is what people always say clump into probate. That’s the selling of everything. So selling the property, like that technically that’s not probate. That’s that’s going through the full administration of settling everything, assets, liabilities, payment. Okay. Um so that’s what the that’s the executive duties. So when someone says so we’re going through probate, the grant part starts first, and that’s and and the and whether there’s tax due. So what you’re trying to work out is is the estate taxable and the um the inheritance tax laws are a little complex, but not that complex. But is there is the estate taxable? No, fine, yes, okay, and there’s different forms you have to fill out. But once you’ve worked all that out, grant the grant is issued, taxes paid, um, the executors start their their job. Yeah. And that’s seven months in just to get there, sometimes. So you’ve got it was nine months.

[1:02:30] Sammie: Yeah, it can take. And then now we’re pushing on two years, still no realization.

[1:02:35] Sam Grice: Well, as as as I said before, we see all sorts of stuff. Sometimes the executor dies um during their pro their job of being the executor. So that can then you have to start all the all sorts of forms to get that changed as well. So so yeah, it’s a it’s a grueling process. Um, but but but when people say probate, what what they’re generally meaning is the the the the wider definition, as I said, which is is basically selling all the assets and transferring that to beneficiaries. Um but part of that then means they’re having a lot of those difficult conversations.

[1:03:04] Sammie: So you you’re doing this uh charity will for free at the moment. Yes. And that’s through charities, right?

[1:03:12] Sam Grice: Yeah, so I’d say fully subsidized versus free, only because the charities do pay for this. Yes. But why they do is what we what we find is common is so about 40% of people that draft a will with octopus leave a gift to a charity. A lot of people don’t know you can gift to charity in a will, um, and you can. And uh it’s a really lovely thing to do because it’s support some a lot of people don’t know this. So I won’t name them just uh, but some of the household names you know, up to 50% of their income comes from charitable giving. Huge um help from the chat. Some of the charities wouldn’t most charities wouldn’t survive without gifts and wills. So it’s very, very important um part of of the industry, and um uh it’s lovely because sometimes people get to a position where they’ve got their pension, the house is paid off, but that’s about it. So they’d love to give money to charity, but they can’t. And this is a way of doing it. So you can you can gift you know some some a percent, five percent, we see a hundred percent gifts, yeah. Um, which children cannot be so happy about. So it’s important to to tell your kids why you’re giving, say, a McMillan money and and and um and the and the reason for it. And we see these people very loyal to their their charities, but so um because especially if they’ve been through hard times and they’ve helped those stuff like that, and or they have an affinity to it. Oh, 100%. I mean, you you McMillan’s a good example, but you’ve got the those McMillan nurses, if you’ve had experience with them and the fantastic job they do, um uh yeah, the surviving spouse would be like absolutely, of course, I’d I’d give some of my estate to that. And the um and and um and so that’s why gifts and wills are really important. So so whilst uh the end user, so your your viewers won’t pay for them, um, the charities do work with us on the payments, make to make it commercially viable. It needs to work for everyone, I think. Um but but their their benefit of that is the is the gifts and wills. And so you don’t have to leave the gift to a charity in your will, but um we we encourage you to think about it and think about a cause you really like and and and and and we we partner with over 300 charities, so you can there’s a lot on there to pick from.

[1:05:07] Sammie: Um so that’s why they’re helping with the subsidies of the will because it makes sense and then then people can naturally leave to their charity of choice.

[1:05:15] Sam Grice: Well, yeah, and is as we’ve said from from the start of today, it’s um uh a lot of people don’t know what you about wills and what you can or cannot do with wills. Uh so a lot of people don’t yeah, don’t know you can actually gift to a charity. So um the reason the charities work with us is we raise that awareness. So it’s yes, you can leave gar you can live, and and you can leave a pecuni gift, so you can give some cash. But what we would always say is think about um, you know, just a percentage of your estate that you’re comfortable with. But you can also say, you know, 500 pounds to this charity or that charity, but um, but yeah, just you know, percent or two can go a long way um for charity. And there’s some tax benefits of it as well.

[1:05:47] Sammie: So there is, yeah. And uh that’s what’s really cool. And because my sister went to look at a house the other day and she offered on it and they didn’t end up getting it. Um because it was like a uh sealed bid one time thing. But um it was Owned by a charity. Yep. And uh like this is the first time I was like, wow, this is a real thing. Like the charity owns the the property, they’re selling the property. Yep. They take the estate. Yep. Um, which is really interesting.

[1:06:12] Sam Grice: Yeah, yeah. So so I mean, as I said, we’ve we’ve some of our charities have 100% of the estate going to a charity. Um, and we work charities on that because not all charities are you know experts in in estates and and and the transfer of wealth. But yeah, so often when you’re bidding on a you’ll know the probate houses when you see them on right move and stuff. You can see the state of some of them because often what it is is they haven’t been lived in for a very long time. Uh so they’re a bit dated. Um, but yeah, so a lot of those on death are transferred to charities. Well, they’ve got those cool like 50s carpet. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So those are sometimes owned by charities, and the charities um it is the same as a any beneficiary. So yeah, they might have an executor, they might be the executor, it’s quite common, actually. So they might be doing it themselves, or they use someone like us to to help them, but um, but yeah, it’s a it’s a charity. And sometimes those ones are a little harder to to bid on, actually, because they’ll just they’ll just set a price and they’re less bothered about when it sells.

[1:07:03] Sammie: Um so is it right that you can leave if you leave 10% to charity, your family pays less inheritance tax. So people tend to try and ease up to that to bring down the burden on their actual family.

[1:07:15] Sam Grice: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So if you’re it’s it’s actually inheritance tax is a tricky one because you you’ve got to work out whether or not you’ve got to work out what your date of death valuation is gonna be. So it’s kind of hard in your life. If you’re 45, you’re like, well, what am I gonna be worth at 80? Equally, when you’re 80, it might be nearly running out. So so I would say that’s why it’s always important to update your will, because if you’re 60, you might have an inheritance tax bill decide to give 10% charity for the for the inheritance tax savings, but actually, um, when you’re near 80, you’re running out, and so you might change your mind. But yeah, but yeah, there’s there’s there’s gifts. It gets a bit nuanced with gift aid and stuff, so it’s always best to have a look online. I think there’s some calculators on on our website, but um, but yeah, like is what are the benefits for doing this? But yeah, there’s inheritance tax benefits for gifting up to 10%.

[1:07:59] Sammie: Well, it’s it’s just something to to take in consideration, especially if there’s a large inheritance tax bill, because it can help balance the books slightly there.

[1:08:08] Sam Grice: Yeah, and and you’re supporting charity, so and you’re doing a good thing.

[1:08:11] Sammie: Yep, yeah. Um, so it makes a lot of sense, right? Um, but you should look into that. Every situation is nuanced. We should 100% clear that up because it’s not always a case with inheritance tax, depending on the size and complexity of your estate. It can be quite quite a uh nuanced conversation. But um, mate, I’ve loved this. Yeah, what have we not covered? Have we covered pretty much the main grounds?

[1:08:33] Sam Grice: Yeah, for your for your state, I mean, we can on the back of that, we’ll we’ll get someone on my team to ask you some personal details. But I mean, that is for your for your situation, that’s pretty much your your will sorted. So it’s it’s yeah, it’s it’s not as it’s not as not as daunting. And there was we discussed a lot of scenarios that weren’t even relevant to you, um, just for your listeners. But um, but yeah, I mean, for you for you, you’re quite a simple estate. Um, and so um, you know, we’ve got uh and and would you say largely most people are? Um I would say no, I would say, well, complex and size often gets mixed up, so people assume a large estate is complex. Actually, a large estate can be, you know, very wealthy person just says, I want everything to go to my wife. That’s a really simple estate. Um, I think when it gets complex is people gift a lot to different people and they have these conditions, and it’s like that’s when it gets complex. But what I would say is unless it’s a large estate, you know, the the conditions on the £10,000 gift is probably going to be someone has to enforce that and manage it, and it’s complex. So um some people sometimes overc overcomplicate their estate. But generally, I think most people the the biggest the biggest um the biggest thing is around guardians, is where where there’s a lot of disagreement between couples, um with young children, yeah. And if I die, does everything go to my wife, or does some go to my wife and some go to my or or husband and some go to my children? Those are the two decisions that people um can have to debate as families. But apart from that, it’s pretty pretty pretty straightforward.

[1:10:03] Sammie: And um, but and imagine businesses are a little bit as well.

[1:10:06] Sam Grice: Yeah, if you’ve got a business, it’s best to talk to an expert because there’s all sorts of different ways that businesses are owned and and but but it’s an asset. So um uh yeah.

[1:10:14] Sammie: Because it’d be quite interesting because I I have shareholders. Yeah. I imagine there’s a pass down there, what happens to my share, who gets uh who how’s it sold?

[1:10:23] Sam Grice: Well, when it could I mean when it gets into business, obviously your articles of association, there’ll be all sorts of stuff on there. You’ll um I’ll but I won’t go into that on this because probably a whole nother podcast on that. But yeah, you know, like you’ll have good and bad lever causes and all sorts of stuff, and yeah, so it will depend actually. Um, but uh it’s an asset. So it it it you know, in this case you’re you were saying you your your wife would get 25. In this case, your sisters would get 20, 20, 25 each. Um, so yeah, there will have to be something will happen, so it’s best to actually check that out. Um and and what I would say is if you’ve got a if you’ve got a business asset, I would strongly recommend talking to someone like us for a solicitor, um, than doing it yourself because it is it is nuanced and again you’re not doing it right means that on on your death, um, and and that income might support someone. Um so it’s it’s important to to think about it. And probably not common is talk to investors about it, but um about what they would want to happen. Um, because you know, some businesses, the founder or the CEO dies, the business might be over. Um, some businesses probably a bit more autonomous after death, and so maybe the shares don’t have to be sold and all sorts of stuff, so yeah. Need a lawyer there, yes, I think so.

[1:11:35] Sammie: Yes, okay. Well, that’s gonna be interesting. That might delay more hey-ho. But but but the delay, so it depends because I like it. This clause is all in our contracts, by the way. And I did go through all of this when we did all of our contracts.

[1:11:49] Sam Grice: And based on, I always think wheel writing is about making sure that your your stresses are alleviated as much as they can be. So, right now in your situation, because you’re not married, I think it’s better to get something sorted for the house. Oh, yeah, yeah. As in like it’s better, what I’m saying is sometimes people build up all the things they need to cover off, but end up never writing the will. Yeah. Which is better to because you can update your will again in two months. Yeah, yeah. So once you’ve got the legal document, it’s actually quite easy to update it. And and and so for our Oxford Legacy, actually, we offer updates to our clients for free. So get it done. And then at least, okay, you’ve got the house asset and the cash and stuff sorted. Okay, now the business stuff, because then you’re better than having okay, the business wasn’t sorted, the house wasn’t sorted, and the assets weren’t sorted, so the whole estate’s a mess. So, in my opinion, would be because it does doesn’t take very long, you know, you can do it free of charge, but we’ll sort one out for you. At least you’ve got the house and the assets sorted, that can alleviate a bit of your stress, and then you can say, okay, let’s worry about the business stuff now rather than waiting for the business stuff to be sorted. Because again, you could get hit by a bus today. Um, and you’re you would want your if you want your share to go to your partner, not your parents, then it’s better to get that sorted today. And you can literally sort that out, you know, we’ll get something over to you. You can literally sign that with two witnesses today and it’s sorted. Stress off your plate. Better than no will, um, in my opinion.

[1:13:04] Sammie: But yeah, no, completely, completely agree. Me, I’ve I I’ve loved this. And um obviously we we we’re doing some work with you guys on this as well, and we’re gonna leave all the details for everybody to get that will sorted uh in the description below. Um, jump on there. Your team are amazing, um, they’re lovely, and you know, they’re sending me the videos over that people have done and the work that you’re doing on the legacy boxes uh is incredible. Uh hats off to you guys because you know, I think you you’ve turned what can be quite a tough experience into like quite a nice experience, yeah. Um, and giving people those memories back, which is uh I I think so key. You know, for me, I would have absolutely loved that for my granddad. And uh, you know, thankfully there’s footage of him on the tele, which is helpful. Yeah, but even that is for me is like it’s not as personalized, you know. So I think I’d have loved something like that. Um so yeah, I think it’s awesome. But thank you, man. Um, so yeah, head to the show notes below. But yeah, uh, where else should people go if not?

[1:14:03] Sam Grice: I mean Octopus Legacy, um, go to our website, we’ve got a number and an email there. And when you call us, you’ll you’ll get one of our yeah, our team is very lovely, it’s a big part of our brand and what we’re trying to build, but you’ll get a um a person on the phone and and we we talk to people all day, just and there’s no charge for these chats. We basically trust trying to find out what they need. If it is it complex, is it not? Um, and then guide them down that path. But so a lot of the questions you had around businesses and stuff, our team’s trained to have those conversations on the first call. So it’s no like surprise when you come to a consultation with us. Um, and what we’re trying to do is ask you those questions first. So we ask you quite a few questions on the phone, and then we say, well, actually, basically what you’ve said is quite simple. So you know you can do it online. Or okay, with that, with that second wife, you might probably want to speak to speak to a solicitor. So so um, so um, so our teams trained on that. So and they’re really lovely.

[1:14:49] Sammie: Um they are, yeah, from first hand experience. But dude, it’s been a real pleasure. Thank you so much. And uh yeah, yeah, let’s let’s some wheels written.

[1:14:56] Sam Grice: Yes, exactly.

[1:14:56] Sammie: Good is, man. Perfect.