The Debt Free Guys: How John and David Paid Off $51,000 in Debt Together

This transcript is auto-generated and lightly edited for readability, it may contain errors.

[0:00] Sammie Ellard-King: Hello and welcome to the Money Gains podcast. This is your host, Sammie Ellard-King, and this podcast is powered by Up The Gains, a personal finance website dedicated to helping people like you and me learn about money safely. Today, my guests are David and John from Debt Free Guys over in the US, whose story I think will resonate with many of you. They built their business after coming back from $51,000 of credit card debt, where they openly confessed to living a lavish lifestyle before coming to the realization of the position that they were in. David and John have featured in major publications and TV shows such as Forbes, NBC, and they’ve partnered with major brands like American Express and Capital One. Their goal with debt-free guides is to help queer people and their allies live fabulously and not fabulously broke. Let’s get started on the Money Gains podcast.

[1:29] Sammie Ellard-King: So, John, David, welcome to the show. It’s great to have you guys here. Two guests from actually over the pond from Ohio, which I’ve just found out. And um, yeah, it’s great to have you guys. Welcome, welcome aboard. Thank you very much for having us. We’re excited to be here. Awesome. Well, I think the guys to the guests today, they’re gonna really resonate with your story. It’s an incredible one. Sounds like a lot of fun. It seems like we’ve got uh quite a bit to unpack here. So I’m gonna start by rolling the years back a bit. And uh, you know, feel free to answer either one of you first. But what was your relationship like with money growing up? We’re gonna roll back a lot of years then.

[2:14] John (Debt Free Guys): Cher would be so proud. Yeah, you go first. I yeah, uh hi, this is David, just for those of you who are listening, so you can get who our voice get our accustomed to our voices. Um, my early story with money started with um my ch my childhood. Um I was um I was raised in a an out in a household where um early on my dad had a job working for a nuclear bomb factory. Um so in the in the military, my dad was he was in the military and then he worked for the basically uh a contractor, so he was making really good money. Um but um when I was about six, five, six years old, my parents started to get deep into religion. And um it was at that point that my dad realised that his values did not align with what he was doing for work, so he decided to leave, leave the company that he was working for and got a different job. And when he did that, he took a 50% cut in pay. And my mom was not working. Um, and so that’s when the money story started of well, we can’t afford that. Don’t ask for that. We don’t have the money for that. Money doesn’t grow on trees. All of those kinds of scarcity mindset um cliches that build up in our brains started to be ingrained into me. Um, that all of this was not necessarily, you can’t we can’t afford this, don’t ask for it, we don’t have the money. Kind of inbred in me this idea of money is something that I don’t have, and I probably never will have, and I probably don’t deserve. So I grew up with this kind of I I I don’t I didn’t have a good relationship with money, and I didn’t have a good money mindset. Super interesting.

[4:10] John (Debt Free Guys): Yeah, this is John. Um you can usually tell it’s me because I say Mark intelligent things. Um so uh my story. So I I came from a middle class, maybe slightly upper middle class background. Um, and money was always accessible, I think, as far as I understood it. I never you know wanted for anything, but um uh we never talked about money. Money was, I was told that talking about money was rude, um, you’re not supposed to bring up the subject. And so, you know, I kind of got into adulthood, sort of uh never having any sort of struggles with money necessarily, uh true struggles with money. Um, but I also never had any context with money. So I kind of started out with adulthood, kind of trying to figure things out on my own, which I don’t think was necessary. Um, if you know how my even though we didn’t necessarily need anything or weren’t necessarily wanting for anything, um, it doesn’t mean we couldn’t have talked about money to some degree. I do remember um watching my parents pay bills once a month um in the in the kitchen. Uh they would sit down and all their bills, bills would be everywhere. Um, but that’s kind of was the what it was the extent of it. I did have a passport savings account when I was a kid, so I under back in the 70s and 80s that did earn a decent interest rate, especially relative today. Um, and that was kind of profound to me. But that was sort of the extent of it. We didn’t really talk about it, and then I didn’t really lack for anything. So uh maybe that’s part of why I was uh uh uh a complete mess when I finally became responsible for my finances on my own.

[5:50] Sammie Ellard-King: That’s really interesting, quite a different story to you both there, which is which uh which I would you know I’d love to unpack a little bit. So obviously, like you growing up in America and and that kind of upbringing that you both have had, do you feel like you were given the tools at school to learn about money? Was that something that is in was was part of your upbringing and education? No, personal finance isn’t really taught in school, definitely wasn’t taught, I think, when in our generation. I know that there are about I think 13 states in the last election where it was up for a vote to start incorporated into the curriculum. Um, the only the extent of my uh formal education, I think, in finance, I remember I had a business class one year and they told they taught us how to balance a chequebook. I mean, right. So fast forward to 2023, who is balancing a chequebook these days, right? So that that skill did not really go far.

[6:53] David (Debt Free Guys): I remember when I was in middle school, I’m probably was about, must have been about 13, 14 years old. We did a project while we were in school in one of our classes, and that was to basically um kind of build what your adult life would look like. Right. And I think that the goal was to try to teach people how to use money and spend money wisely and all that kind of stuff. But really, what everybody ended up doing was cutting out pictures of all the fancy stuff that they wanted and pasting it all over the pieces of paper and saying, this is what my life’s gonna look like when I grow up. I’m gonna have this car, I’m gonna wear these clothes, I’m gonna live in this city, and all that kind of stuff. I don’t think we actually ever understood, okay, how do you get the things that you want? And my parents weren’t teaching us that. Um, and uh, although my parents, as my dad stayed with the company that he was working for, eventually started earning uh much better money, it didn’t translate them into teaching us how to use money. So formally I didn’t have it, and with and as John mentioned, I didn’t have it personally.

[8:47] Sammie Ellard-King: It’s it’s it’s such an interesting story. Everybody’s got such a different upbringing. You know, I was talking to a lady called Emma from the UK yesterday on the podcast, and she, you know, um she had it ingrained in her from a young age that her parents were big savers, big budgeters, that she was uh from a low-income family, and that meant that meant that they had to to to to survive, you know. And um I I feel like it’s one of those things that if you don’t have it from the previous generation in your life, then you’re then forced to then learn and make those types of decisions yourself. And often that comes through making mistakes and debts, essentially, which you know we’ll cover, I’m sure. But having obviously go on, sorry.

[9:33] David (Debt Free Guys): Well, I was just gonna say you bring you bring up a very interesting point that it does it does have a lot to do with our our our upbringing. That’s one of the places where we can get our money stories. Um, and it doesn’t necessarily have to do with the socioeconomic background of the family that we’re raised in. Because there are plenty of examples of of young people who are raised in um in impoverished situations who learn good money habits, and as soon as they do start to earn money, they learn how to make that money work for them. And then you have these examples of kids who are raised in lavish lifestyles with millions and millions of dollars or pounds or euros or whatever, and they have no clue what to do with their money. And you find out that these you find out these kids have blown through millions of dollars in inheritance money or money that their family has put in a trust for them, and they just didn’t know what to do because they didn’t learn it, right? So the the the socioeconomic background can play or have an impact, but the education portion or learning how to do it is probably even more important. Yeah, oh no, absolutely.

[10:43] Sammie Ellard-King: You know, you can also still come from a very privileged background and then have a still great money education if it’s instilled with into you by it doesn’t even have to be a parent. It can be, you know, uh a guardian, it can be a teacher at school or someone you look up to as a mentor. Like it comes from so many different places, but if it doesn’t come, often it’s it often, you know, the the results can be catastrophic in some situations. And yeah, Morgan Housel talks in his book, The Psychology of Money, that finance is the one topic that you can go and get your master’s and get your doctorate in and still die broke. And somebody who’s a janitor or a gas station mechanic can die a multimillionaire. Um it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s so much of it is about psychology, and so little of it is even about education. Um, that education can only take you so far because so much of finance is dictated by our emotions and how we feel about ourselves and what we think about what we’re worth and what we’re able to achieve and what we the errors we want to put on to other people. So it’s it is a um I sometimes wonder, I know that we talk about in the in the US anyway a lot about the need for having personal financial education. Um, but I don’t know that how far that’s gonna go. It’s fine to provide spreadsheets and calculators and stuff like that, but I don’t know how far that’s gonna go unless we start tapping into people’s psychology and and that’s gonna require some step some therapy, which Roman now kind of I think brave enough to dive into.

[12:08] Sammie Ellard-King: Right, totally. You know, uh something that stuck with me was my catalyst, was a friend turned around to me and said, When do you want to retire? And the age, you know, was well before the traditional age in the UK, which is 65 to sort of 67. I don’t know what it’s like uh in America, but it’s I you know it was 15, 20 years before that. You know, I don’t I didn’t want to reach that point. Um, and then he turned around to me and said, What uh well how much money do you have? How much money do you earn each year? How much money do you have? Add those things up, add the years by the amount that you’re spending and that you want to spend when you’ve retired. Do you have that amount and that was it? And I think once you even in sort of late teens, if you were to instill that kind of initial thought process into someone’s mind, yes, they might go out in their 20s, party, have fun, get a ton of debt, fine. But at some point in their life, they’ll go, oh, they’ll remember those conversations and they’ll start tapping into that memory. And I think that perhaps is more valuable, and there’ll probably be lots of success stories out of putting those lessons into these kids at this young age. And I I, you know, I think it’s a wonderful thing that the American states are doing this, and you know, I I one of the big things I would love to be doing with Up The Gains is is championing and helping people in schools. I think it’s a really, really important part of upbringing for the next generation, who are actually way better with money than we are. Exactly. It’s crazy. Technology. Um, talk to me about this journey that you guys have got on. Um it’s a wonderful story. So I’d love to hear more about it.

[13:53] John (Debt Free Guys): Sure, where’d you like us to start? I can go all the way back to 1973 if you like it. I think talk to us about, you know, you you you know, you got you had really good jobs in the financial services industry, um, and you know, talk to us about that, you know, the lifestyle that you were living and created for yourselves, and then perhaps you know the impacts of that. Sure. Um, I’ll go ahead and get started. This is John. Um so after I graduated college, I was fortunate enough to graduate without any college debt. Um my parents uh were able to pay for that. That was back when that was affordable. It’s not so much today. Um, and uh I grew up in Pennsylvania. And after I graduated, I decided to move to Denver, Colorado. And um I had about combined with all the college graduation gifts or whatever, I had about $5,000 to my name. So I used that to help get me out from Pennsylvania to Colorado and uh get my first apartment and start buying all the first things that make you a grown-up, right? So um couches, beds, uh art, you know, suddenly I didn’t want to have any more poster putty in my my apartment, so I had to get actual real art that I had to be hung out there. And uh I just was buying all these things that maybe made me that I thought an adult should have. And then of course I was got I was in Colorado and Denver for the first time. So suddenly my old uh snowboard and my old snowboard equipment and boots and bindings, all that was like too old cliche passe stuff. I needed new stuff. I need to look better on the mountains of Colorado. So I had to get all acquire all that new stuff. Uh and then I was um, I definitely needed a new car when I got there. I couldn’t drive the same car that I did when I was in Pennsylvania. I was a new person, so I got myself a new car. But all of that, um, despite having gone out to Colorado with a job and a surplus of $5,000, uh, within about a year I had about $25,000 in credit card debt. So quickly, as soon as like I said earlier, as soon as I was in charge of my own finances, I quickly found myself in credit card debt. And then um I’ll let David take over, but it was about a year or so after I moved to Denver where he and I uh initially met. And then um it was about three years after that, that uh we finally got together.

[17:13] David (Debt Free Guys): Um my my uh kind of money journey, um, especially with debt, started when I was uh 19. Um I uh I mentioned earlier that I was raised in a very religious household, so I was not encouraged to go to college. Um I was not encouraged to get a full-time job. I was encouraged to dedicate my life to serving God and helping other people. Um, so uh when I was 19, um, my parents uh decided to send me to um we uh for a short time period, our family lived in Dublin, Ireland. Um the company my dad worked for moved us over there. Um and so I had some friends over there, and so after I graduated from high school, my parents um decided to pay for halfway, and I saved up some money and I went to Ireland for uh actually Ireland and England uh to and to London for a three-week vacation. And um my mom co-signed on a credit card for me, and uh uh the credit card was for emergency use only. And John always jokingly says that I never saw the back of a police car and I never saw the back of an ambulance, but I did come home with a maxed-out credit card. And that was my first taste of having money that wasn’t mine. Uh and I think that’s that’s kind of the fallacy is a lot of people they see this credit limit that they have, um, and they immediately assume that they have, oh, I have all this money, this is my money, I can use it how I want to. Well, it’s not really your money. You’re borrowing, it’s it’s the bank’s money. And um it will be your debt when you use it. It will be, you will have to pay it back. But that’s how it got started for me. Um, but then finally, um, I kind of broke free from the lifestyle, the religious lifestyle I had been living in uh when I was 26, and that’s when I got my first full-time job. And um during that time period, I had this habit of paying my paying some of my credit card bill and then letting it grow, and then paying a little bit and letting it grow and paying a little bit and letting it grow. And every along the way, the credit card companies are like, well, he’s a responsible adult, he keeps making a payment. Let’s give him even more money to spend. And every year the amount went up and up and up. And so finally, when I was uh in my late 20s, um, I went on a little bit of a binge and bought myself a new nice computer and did some traveling, and I had come out of work. I I the company that I was working for um paid for uh portion of my education. So I was also fortunate to not graduate for or not to not um get uh my diploma, my degree um without much debt. I did have a little bit of debt, but I had paid all of that on credit cards. So I then, when I met John, I was in this kind of mode of spending and putting on a credit card, spending and putting on a credit card, paying a little bit off, and just keep on racking that amount up. And so then when we met, we had this kind of um honeymoon lifestyle for the first year and a half. Um we didn’t talk to each other about money. It was all about having fun, enjoying life. And this is, we had both come from the gay scene where it was the party scene, right? Going out on Thursday nights, Friday nights, Saturday nights, sometimes on Sunday nights, right? We were just going out with our friends and being very social and spending lots of money and drinking a lot and going out to nice dinners and buying nice bottles of wine and getting nice clothes and taking nice vacations. The things that we thought were the correct things to do.

[20:57] John (Debt Free Guys): Yeah. And that’s kind of what landed us at this point where um we had our aha moment. We had been living a very um a very uh exaggerated lifestyle for what we were making. Yeah, and too, I think you alluded to it earlier. We were both in finance. So the irony was this whole time we were helping other people with their money, we were helping them save for retirement, telling them not to acquire too much debt, how to prepare to say, put their children through school, you know, all that good, important adult things stuff you’re supposed to do, um, helping them invest, um, but we weren’t practicing what we were preaching in our own lives. Um, and what was interesting is we didn’t talk about finances between the two of us for the first year and a half or so. And we both knew that the other was in finance, of course. And so we just figured that, well, surely he can’t be as much of a mess as I am. Surely some at one of the two of us has to be responsible and have their shit together. But we were both, you know, two peas in a pod, and uh so we finally had our uh come to Jesus moment at one point, and life wasn’t going the direction we wanted to, so we felt like we had to make some drastic changes.

[22:02] Sammie Ellard-King: And talk to me about that day when you had this moment. What was it? Sure. Uh just to what rewind just slightly, when John and I were working in finance, neither of us were in kind of those um those glamorized finance roles that you see on TV, right? We were not making six figures, we were not living in the high-rise in Manhattan and popping bottles on the weekends. Although we’re doing that, we kind of work. But um we had, like I said, we we were doing all of the fun things and really enjoying life. And one weekend we went up into the mountains of Colorado into a little ski town to visit a friend of John’s, and it was there that we kind of fell in love with this idea that this is the perfect town that we should have a vacation home. So we, on the way out of town, we um stopped at a realtor’s office to kind of check out prices, and we had this fantasy going on in our minds. I love modern architecture. We were gonna buy some land, we were gonna have a modern house built for us, a modern vacation home. The kind of place where we would invite our family and friends and let people use it, and everybody would want to be our friends because everybody would knew that we had this beautiful place up in the mountains, right? That was the kind of the crown jewel in why anyone would want to be our friend, is because we have this fabulous place. So we hop in the car, we leave the the the mountain town, we’re at 9,000 feet in the air, basically, and we’re having this fantasy conversation of how amazing this is going to be. And we’re flying down the highway seventy five miles an hour. And sorry folks, I can’t convert all this to sound message. I know I should have known I should know how to do this, but Living going to school.

[23:52] Sammie Ellard-King: So it’s fine. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we’re miles per hour, so it’s all good. Okay. So we’re we’re flying down the road, and I don’t know how we started having this conversation, but one of us started, I guess, asked the question of what well, how much how much do you think we could afford? And that’s when slowly, as we went down the mountain, we went from a vacation uh buying land to build a vacation home to buying something that was already there, to renting long-term during the ski season, to pulling up in front of our home, getting out of the car, grabbing our bags, opening up the door, walking down a flight of stairs into a basement apartment that is dark in the wintertime, you don’t even know what time of day it is. Um, and so what really kind of happened there is we went from the the exuberant high of the fantasy world to the reality of what our lives were really like. And that’s when we confessed to each other we have $51,000 in credit card debt, that we were financial messes, that we were literally living in a hole below ground, and that’s exactly where our finances were, too. And that was kind of the first time as a couple that we basically said to each other, What’s going on? Why is this the case? We’re in finance, we’re helping other people, we’re not doing anything that we are supposed to be doing, and why are we hiding all this? And so that was our confession moment to each other.

[25:21] Sammie Ellard-King: It’s amazing that you even had that moment because many couples go through their entire marriage or years without even having a real money conversation. Some of those entire marriages only last a couple years because they don’t talk about money. Yeah, yeah, for real. Yeah. I I don’t advise this, but I do say sometimes when people ask us about this, that I think that what triggered this was that we couldn’t escape the conversation. We’re driving down the highway going 75 miles an hour, and it’s not like one of us could get angry and get upset and blame it on the other person or say, I don’t want to talk about this, or you know, walk out of the room or open up the door and go for a walk or something like that. Literally, we were locked in a car together, and we had to confront this conversation, we had to continue this conversation. And and I think what happened is it started out as a really fun and good conversation. And that led us to actually really peel back the layers of the onion to say what’s what’s really going on.

[26:22] Sammie Ellard-King: It’s just uh it’s it’s it’s a really cool story though, that that actually happened like that because the high to the low was so fast, and where you started with dreams, you ended up in reality. And you saw the light though, and then you could look back up again, right? And that’s probably the main thing from that story. You could then start to address those things. So well, it took about a week or so to see the light. It was a little bit more the tears for a long time. Yes, that we will bottom pops, and then yeah, no, so it’s kind of funny because the literally, I think it was like for three weeks, we didn’t go out, we didn’t see our friends, we didn’t talk to anybody, we were depressed, and we were just I think that we were steeping in this feeling of how did we do this to ourselves? And I think that that’s the I I will say that’s the one of the fortunate things is that both of us at the same time took the responsibility and said, We did this to ourselves, nobody else did this to us, we did this to ourselves. And that feels pretty bad. When you look at your situation in life and you can say, Oh, this is my responsibility, you gotta accept the fact that you made some mistakes and some pretty bad mistakes along the way.

[27:52] Sammie Ellard-King: 100%, but like seeing the light there set you up for the next stage. And how did that go about? How did you go about this? Because this is this is you know, this is the juicy stuff, right? This is who you guys are, and so the next logical question was WTF did this happen, right? So we’re like, you had to look at the numbers, it’s the only way to find the answer. And so luckily, David, fortunately, David went and grabbed all of our statements for all of our accounts, excuse me, all of our accounts, credit card statements, uh brokerage accounts, savings checking, whatever, all of our ATM receipts that he could find, and he itemized all of our expenses for an entire year, as much as he could down to the very penny. And um, had you asked up to that us up until that point uh what the quality of our lives were, we would have said they’re okay, you know, we’re happy. Things aren’t like off the charts, but we’re happy, things aren’t abysmal, but we’re happy. On paper, though, we are rock stars. We were amazing, we were living the high life. And as David said, we were popping bottles on the weekend. We were spending thousands, tens of thousands of dollars online alone. Um, that’s not including the $400 jeans and other designer clothing that we were spending.

[29:05] David (Debt Free Guys): I didn’t buy the designer clothes. We were spending, I’ll get to you soon. Don’t worry. It’s true. We each have our own things we point to each other and said, I didn’t do that, but you did this. We were we were spending about $400 a week on groceries for two adult men, simultaneously spending about $400 a week dining out. So where was we we were this is we’d never been skinny in our entire lives, but we were spending $800 a week on food. Where was this food going? We couldn’t account for it. And I was by I was definitely the big spender, right? Every time I went and spent money, he was always on something big and lavish. And if if Instagram was a thing, I would have posted it on Instagram because it was amazing. We have millions of followers. But um, and he was a nickel and dimer. He would he I would get judged for what I would buy, but he I didn’t know that he was going to the to Einstein’s bagel every day to get coffee in a bagel and then going and getting a salad or a burger for lunch every day. Um his were small expenses, but his small expenses added up. We were just living way beyond our means, and we didn’t have we did not have the numbers to to provide clarity to that until David did this exercise. Um, but it was great because it showed us exactly where where all of our egregious spending was going, and we realised that that we had a couple of options available to us. Um, for one, if we just reined in some of our expenses a little bit, or even cut some expenses out altogether, we could free up tens of thousands of dollars that we could put towards the principal of our debt. We also realised that we were spending about $10,000 a year in credit card interest payments uh just for the luxury and privilege of having $51,000 in debt. So we’ve you know that gave us the opportunity to figure out what we can do to expedite paying off our debt by either uh lowering or negating that interest rate altogether. Um but that was the first step that we just kind of getting a crystal clear picture of WTF as our money going.

[30:57] David (Debt Free Guys): I think that was the first step. Um, and then it was how do we build a strategy? How do we build a lifestyle that allows us to spend less than we’re making? Because at that point we had been spending way more than we were making. We need to figure out how to do just the opposite, but to have a life that didn’t feel like drudgery, that was we didn’t hate, right? Because we knew we were social people, we still wanted to do things with our friends, we still enjoyed doing nice things and having fun, but we didn’t want to give that up. And so we needed to figure out how do we construct a life, design the life that we want that allows us to both pay our debt off and be able to enjoy life. And we did. We figured out what it what we would need to do, and we then started to implement that. And we basically really put that into high gear, and it took us a little over two and a half years to pay all that debt off. Two and a half, wow, that’s incredible.

[32:00] Sammie Ellard-King: So within that, you must have had so you’ve done the interest. Did you freeze interest on some of the payments by moving into like a zero percent interest credit card? Is there techniques there that you can talk through? Yeah, definitely. So that’s uh that’s kind of the crux or the foundation of what we call the debt lasso method. Um, although it’s not the only piece of it, the one of the big pieces, as John mentioned, we realised that we were on the hamster wheel of credit card interest, right? And we we needed to get off of that wheel so that we could pay it the debt off. And that’s when we kind of really focus on how do we lower the biggest hurdle? And the biggest hurdle for us was that interest. How do we lower that to as low as possible? And that’s when we started finding these zero interest balance transfer offers that allowed us to basically pause the interest at zero for anywhere from 12, 18, 24 months. And when we did that, that allowed all of the money we were putting towards our credit cards to actually pay down the principal balance rather than 60% towards principal and 40% towards interest, or sometimes it’s flipped the other way around, depending on how much how much your balance is. And that was that was one of the things that really helped us was that the the kind of the whole idea was the com we needed to make a commitment, we needed to have a win, we needed to then lower our interest rate, and then we need to figure out what is the lifestyle that would allow us to continue this process over and over and over again.

[33:31] Sammie Ellard-King: And within that, let’s say for someone, obviously, you know, you you you you teach this now, and if people have destroyed their credit, what is the option for them then? Uh the first thing to do is is to work on improving your credit. So, right, you don’t your options are limited if you don’t have a good credit score. I’m assuming it works similarly in the UK as it does in the US. So you need to have decent credit scores. So the first step would be to work on that. Um for um now in the US, the number one way to do that is to number one pay off all your uh pay all your bills on time in full, um, uh starting immediately. Um the other is to improve your credit utilization ratio. So try to have a more available credit than you do actual debt that you have. Um of the tips that we recommend to people is to a good strategy to do both of those is to get a gas station credit card, because for most people in the United States, they drive quite a lot. Um so a gas station credit card typically has a small credit limit anyway, $200, $500 is the most I’ve ever really seen, though I’m sure that there are higher credit limits. But you have to go to the gas station once a week, once every other week, anyway. You have to use gas anyway. So you might as well use this card to your advantage. Um start paying for your gas with this credit card and then pay off the balance every month before it’s actually due. And do that for a series of three or four, six months, and you’ll start to see your credit score increasing. One, because um you’re paying your bills off one time and in full, um, and two, um, well, that no, number one, because you’re paying your good bills off one time and in full.

[35:18] David (Debt Free Guys): One of the other things I would recommend is especially if you if you have a poor credit score, more often than not, the reason why you have a poor credit score is because you’ve made some mistakes. You’ve missed a payment, you were late on the payment. Um and so what you want to do is you want to have a little bit of time of a proven track record that you actually are doing better. I’m I’m I’m getting better, I’m being more responsible with my payments and my money. Um, and once you have that under your belt, three, four, five months, contact your credit, the credit company, and tell them that you’re working to improve, and one of the things that’s holding you back is the high interest. And basically, you’re groveling, you’re begging to a certain degree, please help me do a better job. I’m trying to do a better job, you can help me out with that. And tell them I’ve been a loyal customer for one year, five years, seven years, whatever number of years it is, and I will continue to be a loyal customer as long as you can help me figure out how to lower this interest rate. There is most of the companies have some leeway. I will say there are some people who are adamant about no, they’re not going to help you out one bit. Um, and uh, and that’s those are the companies you’re gonna remember, right? Those are the ones you’re gonna say, okay, we’re out of here as soon as we can get out of here. But the the that the trying to work to do what you can by asking or looking for those opportunities. Um, and uh and then once you’ve kind of built that track record and you’re starting to pick up steam, you’re gonna notice it. Usually your credit score will improve within about three to six months, you’ll start to see it improve. Some people, the first step is not to jump to a zero interest balance uh credit card because they still wouldn’t be able to get that zero interest. Some for some people, it might be I’m gonna jump and I’m gonna transfer from a credit card that has 27% to one that has 9.99%. It’s not zero, but it’s still really good compared to 27%. Or maybe you’re going to get a personal loan that’s gonna drop you down to six or seven percent, right? It’s not zero, but it’s going to help you speed up the process. Um, and the important step there is not the doing of it, it’s what you do with the available credit that you all of a sudden have. You have a credit card that had $9,000 or pounds or euros on it, and now you have it transferred to a new loan or a new credit card, what do you do with it? Well, if you use it, you’re just digging yourself a deeper hole, you’re kicking the can further down the road. Make sure you do not use that credit card. Or if you are using it at all because you have to, that you are paying it off everyone.

[38:12] Sammie Ellard-King: Yeah, 100%. You know, one of the things, the techniques that um you know was was taught to me uh was cut cut the card up. If you can’t um, if you can’t handle it, don’t have the app, cut the card up and set up the direct debit after you’ve made the transfer. So you’re then left with that kind of you will physically need to apply for the new card and tell them, and by the time you’ve done that, you’ve probably told yourself off. You know, you’ve had a little word, and you know you’re not gonna make that purchase or or go out or buy those new trainers that you had your eyes on, you know. So it’s it’s often it’s impulse, right? And and you know, one of those things, what it was something that I actually did. So I was 26, um it was taught to me to have a monumental moment. So you walk to somewhere in the middle, you know, it could be somewhere that you like walking the dog, or you know, you enjoy being um and you and you do it and you film yourself cutting it up, and you get someone to film you doing it, and then you watch it back, and it’s that installation moment in your mind, it’s those neuron, neurons you know, revitalizing and changing. And you’re like, right, I’m ready to go now and do this. And you know, I think that’s that’s a really good way as well, adding to what you said, you know, uh of the techniques you use. So talk to me about debt free guys. Like you you’ve you’ve come from this journey, you got yourself out of debt, you know, the the website’s amazing, you know, you’ve featured so many great places. What’s what how’s how’s the business going and what’s the plans for it?

[39:47] John (Debt Free Guys): Business is good. We’re excited for 2023. It feels like um we were very, very going from into 20 from 2019 into 2020, we were really, really excited. And then it became the scariest year we’ve ever been in business. For sure. Um, but this uh this this year feels good. Um things are going well. So we started after about a uh maybe about a year, a few months before we started uh became completely debt-free, we started to realise that we had a unique perspective uh relative to a lot of the content that’s out that’s created out there because we not only did we have the personal experience of paying off debt and becoming debt-free, um, but we also had all that theoretical theoretical knowledge, right? We were in finance, we’re helping people. So we could combine the two to really help people with a similar problem that we had. And there’s an abundance of people who have in the US especially that have a problem that we had. So we thought we could help solve that. Um we were um naive at the time thinking that we would write this book and then it’d be put become published someplace and it would get into millions of people’s houses and help a lot of people. Um, we didn’t have a platform, and so when we shopped it around to several agents, um finally some agent, one agent responded back and said, Well, it’s a great story, you can provide great help to people. You don’t have a platform, so go out and build your platform, whether it’s getting a radio show, a blog, a podcast, whatever. And so our first uh foray into that was to um to blog was blogging, which is how debt-free guys came about. Um, and then about a year and a half or so, a year after that, we went to our first personal finance conference. Um, about a hundred or nine hundred people were there. And we didn’t know that this whole world existed. So this is completely new to us, and we were there 900 people. We saw that there were people, you know, money bloggers who were helping Christian families. Was it FinCon? Yep, FinCon, yeah.

[41:36] Sammie Ellard-King: Yeah, cool. Um, so there are all these different uh bloggers or podcasters helping different niches, these different demographics. Um, and there was nobody helping the LGBTQ community and uh at that time, but now the only out couple at the conference. And so from people we talked to, as well as our own realization, we decided that you know we need to help our community, and that was how the Queer Money Podcast came about. We went home after that conference and launched the Queer Money Podcast. So now we actually have two businesses. We have Debt Free Guys, which is by and large helps people pay off debt and get on the path to wealth accumulation. And then we have Queer Money Podcast, which talks about the financial nuances of being LGBTQ. Um and those are the uh two primary businesses that we have right now. But we have a couple more things in the works because we can never settle down.

[42:22] Sammie Ellard-King: You get the bug, right? Lots of ideas. Well, it and uh just to kind of fill a little bit of gaps in with the story there is that um in uh John and I realised that this is um I actually go back leaving a little bit further. One of the things that John and I hated about our lives um in finance was that we would leave for work in the morning, 6, 6.30, and uh say goodbye to each other, and then we would come back together 6, 6 30 at night, have dinner, watch some TV, go to bed, rinse and repeat the next five days in a row. On the weekends, we were doing all the stuff that we needed to to get the keep maintain our home and life and all of that kind of stuff. And we’re like, this is the person I love the most in the world, and I spend less time with them than I do the people that I work with. And this is not the way I want my life to be. And we can make a conscious decision to change that, and we decided to make a conscious decision, and that was one of the big motivators for us going and starting our own business. And um, John quit his uh job in 2016, and I quit mine in 2018 so we could dedicate uh our lives full-time to this. And uh we have uh there have been, you know, as we just mentioned, some some uh fat years and some lean years, but we’ve also been able to really enjoy our lives together. We spent three years living in CS Spain. I’m sorry, three years, three months living in three months in CS Spain, um, all because we decided to make the financial changes to our lives that allowed us to get to the point where we didn’t have to rely on a job to make sure that we were making it from week to week or month to month. And that the that’s the I think that’s I I like to say this to people a lot. Um, for those people who are in debt and who want to get to a point where they have wealth, the habits that you learn while paying debt off will make you wealthy if you keep those habits once you’ve paid the debt off. You you use that’s what we what as soon as we stopped paying our debt off, we made the mistake of saying, we made it to the finish line. Yay, life can go back to the old way, and we did. And uh within about a year, year and a half, we had $6,000 in debt again. And I looked at Donna and I said, This is the we’re we’re we’re starting to head down a bad path again. And we said, okay, we need to go back to what we had learned before. And then we then and we we paid that debt off really quick. And that’s when we said, okay, how do we get this extra money out of our spending habits and into a place where it’s going to grow well for us? And that’s what it did. It set us up for the retirement that we don’t have to contribute to our retirement accounts anymore because we know we’re going to retire with enough money to be able to carry us through the retirement that we want. And then we have the time and energy to spend our life, our daily life, the way that we want to, helping our community, helping other people.

[45:31] Sammie Ellard-King: That’s a beautiful story. And one of the things you said there, which I think is really important, is that time freedom aspect that you’ve created for yourself. And you get that by having that lifestyle business. And it is a it is a journey, like you know, as you said, you’ve had some fat years and some lean years. It’s a tough ride, like, especially when you’re responsible. For yourselves and your brand and the way you think you know you throw your passion and your life into these things. And but you did it, and that’s the most important thing. You made that start and that step. And another thing you said, which I loved as well, is about once you get to net zero, what happens then? Like you’ve created some what the foundations of essentially what it takes to build generational wealth. And starting to invest, whether that be, you know, you guys started in a business, and you know, I’m sure do you have an investment accounts as well?

[46:29] John (Debt Free Guys): And yeah, about 90% of our net worth is in investment accounts, uh, in retirement accounts here in the US, traditional or Roth IRAs. Um, we also have some real estate investments and then some cash. Probably not as much cash as we should have in this market, but we’re just riding through it. Yeah, no, we won’t we won’t get into that right now. Yeah, no, it’s yeah, oh god, it’s it’s a crazy time out there right now. But equally as well, a brilliant time to start investing if you if you have that ability. Yeah, 100% it is. That’s buying more. We attribute um a lot of the wealth that we have today to the fact that what when we were getting close to paying our debt off and we started to realise that we what we wanted to grow our lives in uh in that direction, that we started putting more money into our retirement accounts. And that was in 2009 when the market crashed. So we were buying all sorts of fire sales. Yeah, we were buying a lot more shares of stock uh and and investments when it was all crashing. So if you have any any freedom in your budget, right now is the time to start piling it in there because it will come back. Barring any catastrophic things that are going on in the world, and then then we have other things to make it.

[47:50] Sammie Ellard-King: Like a pandemic or a war, yeah, who knows, inflation. Yeah, I know. There seems to be a lot more stumbling blocks now. But then if you go back and you speak to people that went through that crash 2008, was it? Yeah, 2008. Um it’s like they will say the same things. There were so many other factors at play, they didn’t think anyone thing was going to come back, everybody was predicting a four, five, six-year, you know, downturn. And it that wasn’t necessarily the case, things came back, and it’s a cycle, these things are made. This is why the financial system exists. And once you get through that, and if you realise you know you’re buying lots when you’re down, and not so much when everybody’s happy go lucky, and Bitcoin is a million dollars, you know, that type of thing. Yeah, so um, that’s that’s that’s the way you should think. And if you can do that, um, it can it can really set you up for for the later years, definitely.

[48:51] John (Debt Free Guys): Um yeah, it’s it’s easy to think as you’re living through it, that you’re living through the worst time in history. But I mean, we have to go back and think about okay, our both all of our both both of our countries have survived World War I and World War II. We in the US had the Great Depression. Um, and despite all of that, the stock market economy continues to improve year over, maybe not year over year, but in in increments, it continues to improve over and over again. Um, one of the most volatile times for investors was was was uh after the dot-com bubble here in the US, and then we had 9-11, and then shortly after that we had um the stupid Iraq war. And you know, there was a hard time to be an investor at that time because every time you’re things are about ready to turn around and be good to be a good stock market, something you know threw a wrench in that. And then of course we had the housing crisis. So it’s it’s easy to think that as you’re living through it, it’s not going to get any better, and that can put a lot keep a lot of people in the sidelines. Um, but it could by and large continues to improve. So um investing in the stock market is is what we consider one of the one of the corners of uh the wealth-building pyramid.

[49:55] Sammie Ellard-King: 100%. And I mean, if you’re doing that over, look, yes, you’re right, you know, it might be tough. It could be tough from now for the next five years, but if your time horizon is 10, 20 years and your dollar cost averaging into the market every month and buying at different average points, over time that money’s gonna grow an enormous amount when things start to even out again. Um, so yeah, you’re right, it’s it’s definitely it’s definitely, you know, it’s it’s a fundamental basis of building wealth. And and people that uh have debt, I feel like they need to get through that period first, understand how money works by reducing income and and paying things off on time, um, and then they can finally get into investing. You know, I a lot of people talk to me, like, you know, hey, yeah, yeah, and I know they’ve got credit card debt, and they say, hey, yeah, what’s the best stock to buy right now? And I’m like, hey, like this is not what to do. And yeah, you kind of have to have that chat with them, and they don’t want to hear that, they just want to know what the next highest thing is, and like they’ll eventually they find their own realization. I’m not here to try and preach to you. It’s uh I’m here to give you the found foundations that you could that could help you.

[51:13] David (Debt Free Guys): And that’s important. I think there’s there’s two things to remember about credit card debt. Um, credit card debt is the only guaranteed return you’re ever going to get when you’re it when you’re growing your net worth and you’re paying it off, right? If I’m paying off a 20% credit card, I’m paying, uh I’m getting a 20% return for every dollar that I send to that credit card company. There’s no guarantee that I’m ever going to get a 20% return in the market. There might be years when I get a 25, 30, 40, 50% return in the market, but there are also going to be years like this past year where you’re going to have 20, 30% down, 40% down, depending on what you’re invested in. Credit paying off your credit card debt is the guaranteed return towards improving your net worth. Um, the other thing is that compounding interest can hurt you as much as it can help you. Oftentimes we look at these people and these amazing returns that they’ve had, they’ve had an annualised return of 15%, 20%, and we’re like, oh, I want to do that. How can I do that? Well, if you’re using compounding interest with against yourself with credit card debt or with pretty much any sort of high interest debt, it may not be just credit card debt. There’s other forms of high interest debt. But if you’re doing that, you’re undermining your net worth and you’re going backwards, right? You’re using both sides of the sword, and one of them is hitting you, and it does, it’s not just not going to do do you what you’re not doing yourself any favors.

[52:47] Sammie Ellard-King: 100%, 100%. You know, you’re flipping that model on the head there, you know, you’re going backwards with a compound interest. You don’t want to do that, right? Yeah. Guys, it’s been an absolute pleasure. I’ve really enjoyed this conversation. Um, I you know, there’s so many beautiful little nuggets in there that I really hope people take away from this. And you know, if you are struggling with debt, then you know there are. I think it’s important to say that you know you guys are success stories, you’ve seen the the the other side of it, there is a way out, and then you know, it’s you just need to have that personal epiphany moment to get yourself there. Um guys, where where can people find you? Like where you know, what’s the what’s the best channels for you guys? Nowhere. Nowhere. We’re everything. We’re on all the socials.

[53:36] John (Debt Free Guys): Yeah, we have uh debtfreeguys.com or queermoneypodcast.com, and then we’re either DebtFreeGuys or Queer Money Podcasts on almost all the social media platforms. So um probably the best way to reach out to us directly is through one of our websites, um, or you can try to DM us on one of the social media platforms. We don’t always check those as regularly, but we will eventually. Awesome. Well, guys, it’s been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much again for um for coming on. And uh yeah, I uh I hope to catch up with you again soon in a couple of years’ time and see where the journey’s going. Yeah, thank you for having us. We appreciate the opportunity. Pleasure. Thanks, guys.