Ayesha Ofori: The Goldman Sachs Lessons Behind Propelle

This transcript is auto-generated and lightly edited for readability, it may contain errors.

[0:00] Ayesha Ofori:

It’s gonna take 250 years at least to close the gender pay gap.

[0:05] Sammie Ellard-King:

No.

[0:06] Ayesha Ofori:

I’m Ayesha Ofori. I’m the founder and CEO of Propelle, which is the UK’s first and currently only female focused investment platform. I would wake up before school to study. I got for some of my math modules like 98%, 99%. Wow. I like to be at the top of my game. And I’ve always been like that. It is very challenging and very difficult on the fundraising side, in terms of women not being able to raise money and it being even worse for black women. But for me, I was just like, I will find a way. If you invest for a 10-year period, your probability of loss is around 2%. If you invest for 15 years, I think the probability of loss drops to something like 0.02. I mean, Einstein um called compounding the eighth wonder of the world, and he’s not wrong. For me, this is like the fundamental key thing about why investing works. Steady and often. It’s not a flat line. It goes up almost exponentially. That’s the beauty of compound. I like to win and I like to do things well. So I would do whatever it takes to make sure that happened. I don’t think I’ve told people this before, but the Money Gains Podcast.

[1:19] Sammie Ellard-King:

So, Ayesha, welcome to the Money Gains Podcast. How are you? I am very well. Thank you for having me. I am so excited for today. I was just saying to you before I was watching your interview that you did. And there is just so much in that good stuff that I really want to unpack today. But for those that don’t know you, would you mind giving us the 411?

[1:37] Ayesha Ofori:

I’m Ayesha Ofori. I’m the founder and CEO of Propelle, which is the UK’s first and currently only female focused investment platform. Um before that, I was a banker for, well, I say for a very long time, so for about 10 years. Um and then in the middle of that, I did an MBA. Um, but I’ve been in finance pretty much all my sort of working career.

[2:00] Sammie Ellard-King:

You I heard something, you say something that you said that like your mother was like super hot on education and that you, you know, you did very well in school and pushed you to get good grades. Yep. But then you’ve had a really interesting money story from that point on. Like it wasn’t always the like easy road that um, you know, you would might perhaps think that someone in banking and finance might have. What’s that story there been like for you?

[2:28] Ayesha Ofori:

Yeah, so I’ve always been I’m competitive.

[2:33] Sammie Ellard-King:

Okay.

[2:34] Ayesha Ofori:

So I like to win and I like to do things well. So when it came to sort of studying, I wanted to get the best marks. So I would do whatever it takes to make sure that happened. Um I don’t think I’ve told people this before, but so for example, with exams, GCSEs, and things like this, I would wake up before school to study to make sure that I was covering everything, and then I go to school. And then when I had my GCSEs, I mean, my results were phenomenal. Um, and then I was a bit like, oh, I spent far too much time studying because actually the exams was I found them so easy that I finished with time and was sort of walked out. And then with A levels, um, again, I got like for some of my math modules, like 98%, 99%. So yeah. So I I like to be at the top of my game. And I’ve always been like that. And I think just my mother being really focused on education on top of that meant I did really well. And then even just sort of going through career and and everything that I do, I always try to be at the top of my game. But when it comes to when it came to sort of money, I think that was different because there’s there’s no sort of like blueprint. I wasn’t taught how to manage money or anything like that. Um, it wasn’t really something that, you know, was talked about in my household. And then when I got into banking, it was always looking at like other people’s money, never sort of my own. Um, and I think just coming from a background, you know, where my family wasn’t particularly wealthy, when I did start to get money, I was like, this is amazing. Oh my gosh, I’m gonna like buy this for myself and buy that for myself. And also just being at Goldman and everyone looks phenomenal and everyone is dressed immaculately and you want to fit in. So I started buying the Louis Vuittons and the other things just so that I also fit it in. But then it does mean that yes, even though you’re being paid very well, you’re spending a lot of money. Um, and it didn’t really occur to me at that point that I needed to start, you know, investing or thinking about the future. So money came in. I was pretty sure I was gonna have my job next month. So it’s like, yeah, I can spend it and next month I’ll get more. And you kind of just get into that cycle.

[4:47] Sammie Ellard-King:

Did you struggle with debt at all?

[4:49] Ayesha Ofori:

I did very early on. Um, so when I was at university, again did something very stupid. Um they give away or they were giving away credit cards on campus. Yeah. I don’t know if they still do that. It’s like Fresh’s Fair, and there’s massive stands, and they’re literally giving away these credit cards. And so to me, it’s like free money. Um, and I’d never, up until that point, hadn’t really worked. I’d done a stint um in retail, didn’t last very long. It was yeah, it wasn’t for me. Um, so I’d never really worked, hadn’t really had any money. Like my mum, anything I needed, my mum would give me. So when I saw this credit card, I was like, amazing. And then I went out and I bought a necklace at once, all the money gone, ignored the bills that started to come. And then I think it was actually my dad that I got to bail me out. And even in the end, I don’t think he knows this. If he listens to this, he’s gonna know now. I made up some excuse, like, oh, I need money for something to pay for this. If I said to him, I took a credit card, bought a necklace, and now I need you to bail me out, he would have been like, on your own.

[5:54] Sammie Ellard-King:

Yeah.

[5:54] Ayesha Ofori:

Um, understandably. So that was my first sort of experience with debt. And that kind of it didn’t scar me, but it was enough for me to be like, for now, I’m done with credit cards. Um, so I guess a little bit of sort of trauma there. And otherwise I would just work, get cash, spend most of it.

[6:14] Sammie Ellard-King:

Yeah, but young. Yeah, you didn’t have that kind of grounding. So you just kind of yeah, I literally exactly the same thing happened to me. They turn up. It’s a Barclay stand.

[6:23] Ayesha Ofori:

Yes, Barclays. That exactly. It’s the Barclays credit card.

[6:27] Sammie Ellard-King:

Yeah, Barclays stand, student overdraft, credit card, suddenly three, four grand down, and I’m 18 and I’m at university. Yeah, mum’s not around, dad’s not around. What are we gonna do? Well, we’re gonna have fun, that’s what we’re gonna do. And we’re gonna look great. And then suddenly you don’t because you’re 18, you’re like, oh, you know, I’m 18. I’m years ahead of me. I’ve not even got a job yet to like be able to pay this off.

[6:52] Ayesha Ofori:

It just didn’t even occur to me. I didn’t think about paying it back. Like that wasn’t even sort of in my headspace. It’s just like, uh well, they’ve obviously given it to me, so I’m eligible for it. Okay, great. I’m gonna spend the money.

[7:03] Sammie Ellard-King:

So, what did you do at uni?

[7:05] Ayesha Ofori:

I studied physics.

[7:06] Sammie Ellard-King:

Interesting. It’s completely different to finance, but the mathematics side very much connected.

[7:12] Ayesha Ofori:

I mean, I knew nothing about finance when I went into finance. Um, I studied physics. Maths is something that I’ve always loved. Um, it was like my favourite topic at school. A levels, I did double maths. Digital maths. Um double math, physics, chemistry, and French.

[7:28] Sammie Ellard-King:

Wow, and French. Oh, cool, nice.

[7:31] Ayesha Ofori:

I was like, I’ve got to do something a little bit different. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can’t just do like all of the science and the numbers, but maths was just my thing. It makes sense. And I know this is gonna sound really weird, but it’s almost like I remember the feeling of like solving like algebraic equations or something like this. And you know, you you have the sort of question at the top of the page, and then you write the answer and it just all makes sense. And you know, like for other people, kind of when they look at it, I remember some of my friends will be like, What on earth have you written to me? I’m like, but it’s so clear, it’s just so it was just my thing. Um, it was just very good at it. And so when I got to university, I was like, right, I I want to do that. I want to do maths as well. But I was like, right, let me do physics because it’s applied maths. So, or what I thought it was was gonna be useful maths rather than just doing maths, which is a bit abstract. But then I got into the program and then you’re learning about the solar system and all these weird and wacky things. And I’m like, this is not practical at all. Yeah. But I’m here now. This is actually really interesting. Um, I had so many questions about the universe, why we’re here, how it all works. And I’m like, okay, this is amazing. I’m gonna study physics, I’m gonna learn all the answers to like human existence. Yeah. And then I think it was within my first term, I was like, they don’t have the answers. And actually, now I have more questions than I started with. But again, it worked for me. I like the fact that it was very analytical. I could sort of work my way through things and sort of problem solve. Whereas I never would have chosen something like English or history where there’s just no right or wrong. You just have to explain things. Like for me, it’s I’m very a very black and white sort of person. Um, and then when it came to banking, they came on campus and recruited us. And I remember thinking, like, why have they come to us? Like the physicists and the mathematicians, and they were like, you know, you you think analytically. Everything you need to know about banking and finance, we can teach you. But we, it’s the way your brains work. That’s why we’re here. Um, I knew nothing about banking at that point. Um, I thought the banks were like high street banks that, you know, where you go and at that point, you know, you deposit your money and you’ve got your little book and you go. Um, so when I started, yeah, no clue. Didn’t know what a balance sheet was, didn’t know what PL was, but they taught us everything very quickly, very steep learning curve. And then you have exams that you have to pass pretty much um at the beginning. If you don’t pass them, you can’t do the job.

[9:55] Sammie Ellard-King:

Was this Morgan Stanley?

[9:56] Ayesha Ofori:

Uh this was Morgan Stanley. Yeah. So you start, you go through like a training program, is the first thing you do. Um, very intensive hours and hours of like accounting, financial spreadsheets, you get big binders of things you’ve got to learn, um, FCA rules, regulations. Um, it’s pretty full on. But again, for me, like I like studying.

[10:15] Sammie Ellard-King:

Yeah.

[10:15] Ayesha Ofori:

Had just come out of um university. I was like, okay, I can do this. And then you’re with a cohort of people who are very similar to you, a lot of Europeans actually, and it was just really fun. And we were having a good time, despite the fact that it was banking. You know, people always say, but you work crazy hours. And we did, you know, we start at nine, and most nights you wouldn’t finish till like three, four a.m. And then the nights that we did finish a bit earlier, let’s say we finished at midnight, we’d normally go to a club, and then clubs in London stay open till three. So we go clubbing till three. Um, and then we back in the desk and then seven. Yeah, then we go home, I don’t know, get like two hours or something, and then grab clothes, change, and you just do the whole thing over again. And every single night you’re pretty much doing this.

[11:01] Sammie Ellard-King:

There was that BBC program. I think it was like a BBC program of the young kids going through this. Yeah. That’s exactly what it is.

[11:06] Ayesha Ofori:

Yeah, I can’t I forget the name of what it’s called.

[11:08] Sammie Ellard-King:

It’s really good though. Yeah, yeah. It’s like showing and how like some people just can’t hack it and they drop out, but some people like they they live for it and they become this.

[11:16] Ayesha Ofori:

It’s full on, but you’re in a bubble. And because you’re working seven days a week and you’re not really seeing anyone else, you forget you’re in a bubble. Yeah. Um, and so people are like, How did you do it? We were all doing it. Like for us, it became normal. Um, and even now I say I still have remnants of that. So I still do my best work between sort of 1 and 3 a.m. So even now, my team now.

[11:41] Sammie Ellard-King:

Yeah, this isn’t this you’re a night owl.

[11:43] Ayesha Ofori:

Absolutely. Yeah, not a morning person at all.

[11:45] Sammie Ellard-King:

Oh, I’m completely the opposite.

[11:47] Ayesha Ofori:

No, you will not get me up early in the morning. If if I get up early, I am grumpy. Yeah, it’s it’s just not good for anyone.

[11:54] Sammie Ellard-King:

I get it. My partner’s exactly the same as you. She hates it. I’m literally like there, morning. She’s like, honestly, you need to like get the hell away from me now.

[12:01] Ayesha Ofori:

No, I’m exactly the same. Um, but between like one and three, my best hours. So what I’ve said to my team now is I will be messaging you guys. I don’t expect you to respond. Just make sure you’ve turned the notifications off so that when you wake up, you have them. But probably when you guys are up at like six, seven, I’m not. Um, but you can then start working on the things that I’ve kind of commented on through the night.

[12:22] Sammie Ellard-King:

You’re like totally flipping that founder status going 5 a.m.

[12:26] Ayesha Ofori:

You know, I have some friends like that who are founders as well. Oh, I get up at like five and then I I go for a run or I, oh my gosh, no, absolutely not. Just doesn’t work for me.

[12:35] Sammie Ellard-King:

Well, my my hours are five, uh, yeah, about six, I would say. Because I do need a T to kick in. Uh six till ten, I’m on.

[12:44] Ayesha Ofori:

But you must go to bed really early.

[12:46] Sammie Ellard-King:

Yeah, about nine thirty, ten.

[12:48] Sammie Ellard-King:

Oh my gosh.

[12:49] Sammie Ellard-King:

That’s like I’m having dinner then. Yeah. Yeah. I’m out like a light. I just that’s when I fade off. So like computer goes off at eight o’clock and you know, hour and hour and a half of like downtime. Yeah. And then yeah, out like a light, but I’m every day, five o’clock, bing morning, and like ready to go.

[13:05] Ayesha Ofori:

No.

[13:05] Sammie Ellard-King:

Yeah.

[13:06] Ayesha Ofori:

And I even like I’ve got two young kids as well, so I’ve got to fit their schedule in. So they go to bed at 8:30. So I usually work till around six. Then I spend time with the kids, you know, dinner, get them ready for bed, homework, get them ready for bed, that kind of thing. Then I will, then it’s probably about nine. So then I’ll have some dinner, eat something, and then I start my second shift and I start working. Um, and then I’ll work, yeah, one, two, then I’ll have a shower and go to bed. Luckily, my husband’s the same. Um, so we’re usually up pretty late working. The downside is that neither of us are morning people. So when the kids were younger and like they’re waking up at like four or five a.m. I’m like, oh my God, this is this is this is painful, like actually painful.

[13:51] Sammie Ellard-King:

Yeah, I know. I can imagine. Yeah, literally, like, especially as well when it’s like they’re super young, it’s like every two hours, isn’t it?

[13:57] Ayesha Ofori:

It’s I don’t know how to do the power that well, did you?

[14:01] Sammie Ellard-King:

I you just get through it.

[14:02] Ayesha Ofori:

I think you kind of get through it and you tell yourself that it’s not gonna last forever. So people are always asking me, like, oh, will you sort of have another child? And whilst the theory is nice, the practicality of it, like going doing those mornings, brutal. Yeah. And now that I’m running Propelle and my days are full on, um, even with the two kids that I have, it’s it’s challenging. So yeah, I just don’t see myself doing it again.

[14:30] Sammie Ellard-King:

I get it. I get it. So you went from Morgan Stanley to Goldman.

[14:34] Ayesha Ofori:

Yep. And with an MBA in between.

[14:36] Sammie Ellard-King:

With Yeah.

[14:38] Ayesha Ofori:

You’re relentless. Yeah, did an MBA in the middle.

[14:42] Sammie Ellard-King:

Of in.

[14:43] Ayesha Ofori:

So I went to London Business School and did the two year MBA program. Um, and I specialised in investment management.

[14:50] Sammie Ellard-King:

Oh, cool. Yeah.

[14:52] Ayesha Ofori:

And then you went from And then I went from there to Goldman.

[14:54] Sammie Ellard-King:

Okay.

[14:55] Ayesha Ofori:

Yeah.

[14:56] Sammie Ellard-King:

Like you’re at Goldman now, you’ve you’ve essentially could stay there for the rest of your life. Why didn’t you?

[15:48] Ayesha Ofori:

Yeah, that’s an interesting one. I thought I would. So pre-MBA, if someone had said to me like, what what is like the pinnacle of success, I’d always had this thing like partner at Goldman Sachs. Like, yeah, then you’ve made it. You’re making money, like proper money. Um, and you kind of have that, you know, that thing where you know people look up to it, it’s like a status thing. So it’s like, yes, that would mean I’ve made it. But it was actually business school that changed how I think about things and how I see the world. I went to business school, I was surrounded by people from all over the world who came from all different kinds of backgrounds. And just talking to them showed me that there were so many other things that you could do in the world. But because I’d only ever been exposed to banking, that was all that I knew. Then I started to speak to people who had come from consulting. I remember there was one girl in my one girl in my class who was a chicken buyer for KFC. And I remember thinking, that’s random. But it was just like, oh, that’s that’s a job. Also pretty cool. Yeah. And so it just really got me thinking um that there’s just so much that you can do. And so then I started to think, right, what if I can do anything? What is it that I wanted to do? And business school really helped build my confidence in myself. And by the time I left, I genuinely felt like I can do anything. And I’d met MBAs before I did mine. Um, and I was like, oh gosh, yeah, those arrogant American people who like so full of themselves. And and I used to think, oh, so arrogant, so arrogant. And then when I did the MBA, I was like, it’s not arrogance, like it’s confidence. It’s confidence. Like you genuinely believe you can do this. And I’d say it’s even more than belief, like you can, you can do this. And that’s what I developed. So I was like, right, I can pretty much do anything apart from become America, like president of the US. And that was back then. Like, given the way things are now, pretty much anyone can be president of America. So it’s like, right, if I can do anything, what do I want to do? And I was like, I want to do something that has impact. Um, it’s always been important for me to like leave a legacy. Um, I always used to think about like why we’re here as humans and what’s the point of existing. And for me, it’s leaving something positive behind.

[18:11] Sammie Ellard-King:

It’s that physics background. I think so.

[18:13] Ayesha Ofori:

Because my husband says to me, it’s like, you’re so weird. Like most people are just happy to like be happy, have a family, have a nice job, have some money, and just exist. What is your obsession with leaving something? It’s just personal to me. I don’t want to be here and then not be here, and that’s it.

[18:29] Sammie Ellard-King:

Do you have someone in your family that perhaps you really look up to that’s left a legacy that that’s insane?

[18:34] Ayesha Ofori:

No, not at all. And I think it’s probably the opposite. Like, okay, beyond my grandmother, yeah, I don’t know anything about any of my sort of family before that. I was like, well, that’s pretty sad. That’s just two generations, and then you’re forgotten. I’m like, I don’t want that to be me. I want my life to mean something. I want to, as I said, leave something behind in a positive way. And so I started to think about, okay, how best can I do that? What are what aligns with my skill set? What does the world need? Um, and at that time I couldn’t come up with anything. I was still at business school. Um, and they were sort of pressuring me to submit my CV for things. And I sort of said to them, look, part of the reason of taking this MBA was because I wanted two years to like figure things out and sort of find myself. I think we started in July, and by the October, they’re like, Where’s your CV? And I was like, CV for what? I don’t know what I want to do. And they’re like, no, you have to put submit a CV now because you’ve got to apply for an internship that you’ve got to do next summer, and then that will get you a job the year after. And I was just like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I thought I had time and I had to go along with everybody else. So I submitted my CV. The only thing I knew was banking, so ended up applying for banking. But I did know at that point more about myself. So I knew that I didn’t like mornings, so I wasn’t going to be a trader. I knew that as much as I love numbers, I also like talking and people. So I wanted a role that was more personable. I wanted more leadership responsibilities. So that helped when I started to think about what roles post-MBA I wanted to do. Um, and someone suggested wealth management to me. And initially I was like, you mean hanging out with a bunch of old dudes that play golf and smoke cigars? And I was like, no, thanks. And then someone said, No, no, no, at Goldman, it’s different. You know, you can be the person that manages the money, but you’re also the person responsible for bringing the clients in. They’re very sort of modern, forward thinking. They’re like, um, they actually said, Oh, I think you’d fit well in Goldman. I don’t know whether that was the pitch. Yeah. Yeah. Or not. But I was like, okay, let me have a look. Um, and then I looked at it and I was like, Yeah, I I think I could do this.

[20:45] Sammie Ellard-King:

Yeah. And that’s like you know that about yourself now. You got that into that position, and you’re like, okay, I’m gonna go and do this. When did it hit you like a ton of bricks? Because it always happens to founders. They’re like, okay, I just had the idea, and maybe it fested for a little while, but it hit me. And I’m like, I’ve now the cogs are in motion.

[21:06] Ayesha Ofori:

Yep. I remember that point so clearly. So I when I’d finally decided to leave Goldman because I knew that I wanted to do something else, we were only helping incredibly wealthy people. And I was like, no, there are people out there who need help. I want to help them. We had like lots of male clients. I was like, where are the women? So I left Goldman, but I didn’t have a clear vision of what I was gonna do next. And that’s incredibly scary because I essentially left into the abyss. Like, what am I gonna do? Oh my gosh, I have no idea. Um, but then I started to just run events and I said, look, I’m gonna take some time out. Um, I’ve had a baby, I’m gonna take a bit of time. I’m not a stay-at-home mum, and I’ll say that openly, that it’s just not me. So I was like, right, I need to do something or I’m gonna go a bit crazy here. Um, so I said, right, why don’t I just start running events um and sharing with women what I know about building wealth from building my own wealth through property investing and also what I learned at Goldman. And I was like, Do you know what? If 50 women turn up, absolutely fine. You know what? I’m still figuring out what I want to do. So I rented or I hired a hotel room. It was a hotel uh near Euston Square. I and sometimes I drive past it, I’m like, that’s where it started. Um, and had an event, first event, hundred people. I was like, oh, amazing.

[22:27] Sammie Ellard-King:

Yeah.

[22:28] Ayesha Ofori:

Even at that point, it didn’t click. I really it was when I kept doing it, I was probably like four in, and then the wait list was like a thousand. And I was like, something has happened. Yeah. I hadn’t spent a penny on marketing. I’m actually pretty rubbish with social media. So I’m like, what is going on? Yeah. And then And it was during some of those sessions, women then started to say, okay, I’ve been coming to your events for a while. I’m ready to invest. Um, you know, how do I send you my money? And I was like, Oh, you don’t send the money to me. And I was like, Oh God, like, I hope you’re not sending your money to anyone that you just meet, like, no, no, no, don’t send the money to me. I don’t work for Goldman, I’m not regulated. I’m like, go use an investment platform. There are so many. And then they come back and say, Oh no, but I tried that one and it’s that one just doesn’t make any sense, or various different reasons or things came up. And that was the moment. I was like, hold on a second. They want to invest, they’re ready to invest, they have the money, but they don’t want to use any of the existing platforms out there. I was like, then I should build one. And I didn’t, I actually didn’t want to because working in a regulated environment is incredibly challenging.

[23:37] Sammie Ellard-King:

Yeah.

[23:38] Ayesha Ofori:

Um, and even from my time at Goldman and compliance and all the things that happened, there were some regulatory changes that happened when I was there, and it’s just painful.

[23:47] Sammie Ellard-King:

Yeah.

[23:48] Ayesha Ofori:

So I was like, oh, do I really want to go down that route? And I remember speaking to my husband about it. He was a banker too. He’s like, no, don’t do it. He’s like, oh, it’s just gonna be a headache. But I’m like, compliance. Yeah, compliance. Just oh my gosh. But he’s like, I sort of said to myself, but they’re asking for it.

[25:13] Sammie Ellard-King:

The mission’s bigger.

[25:15] Ayesha Ofori:

Yeah, they’re asking for it. We can, I can help these women. And they’re asking me to do something I know how to do. And it was like, that was the light bulb moment. I’m like, I need to build an investment platform. I need to build an investment platform that’s for women that helps them to overcome, you know, whatever hurdles they have that helps them to invest. So whatever it is about those existing platforms that they don’t like, we need to do something different because women out here, they want to invest. Um, so we need to help them to do that. And that was the light bulb moment.

[25:49] Sammie Ellard-King:

Wow. So it did take a little bit of a like jab from these events for it to go off.

[25:55] Sammie Ellard-King:

Yeah.

[25:56] Sammie Ellard-King:

But you had that. Like it’s it’s a big part of starting a business because you’ve tested the water early. That’s why, like, you know, um, people say, you know, get a wait list together if you don’t get anyone on the wait list, it’s probably not a good idea. And like, but you’ve done the events, you’ve seen that, you got feedback one-on-one with these people.

[26:15] Ayesha Ofori:

And I did that without even really thinking about it, right? Because I’d never been an entrepreneur. So I didn’t know at the time that there were certain things that you had to do before you sort of start running with an idea. Yeah. For me, it’s just they did they just happened. I started running the best events because it just fell into a lap. Exactly. Yeah. Um, and then so looking back with hindsight, I’m like, oh yeah, I did actually test those things and do all of that. It wasn’t intentional, but it happened. Exactly.

[26:44] Sammie Ellard-King:

So it’s like if I start a brand new business, I’m testing the water, like left, right, and center to see what’s going on. Or when we launch a program, it’s exactly the same. So now I know how to do it.

[26:53] Ayesha Ofori:

And they always say like second-time founders are great because you’ve kind of done it, you’ve made the mistakes, and then you do it like better next time.

[27:01] Sammie Ellard-King:

Yeah. Or hopefully your first one’s just a sure shot, which it sounds like it is.

[27:06] Ayesha Ofori:

And we know it isn’t that’s where I am with Propelle.

[27:08] Sammie Ellard-King:

Yeah, yeah. And uh, you know, you’ve done the groundwork to get yourself to that point. Um, what’s it like like building an investment app and raising money to do that? Like it’s a lot, right?

[27:20] Ayesha Ofori:

Yes, it is a lot. Um, I think some days I don’t even appreciate just how much work it is and what it takes from you. Like, I’m just a I just go, I’m a go, go, go, go, go person all the time. Like, there’s always something to do, always something to be done. You get up tomorrow, you just keep going. So sometimes I don’t even have time to kind of reflect. Um, it’s something that I’m trying to do now because people are telling me to do it. They’re like, if you don’t stop, you’re gonna burn out. And even with my sort of IBD background, I’m like, yeah, but I know where my limits are. For example, I know how long I can stay awake without sleeping before I start to go a bit too lally. It’s just over two days. Um, like a lot of people don’t even know that. They haven’t tested themselves to those limits. Whereas banking tested me, so I know where my limits are. So it’s almost like, yeah, I can, I know I can do more because I’m nowhere near my limit. That said, it is very challenging and very difficult. On the fundraising side, I think, I mean, it’s something that’s talked about a lot in terms of women not being able to raise money and it being even worse for black women. It is a real thing. I didn’t think it would apply to me. Um, I was a bit, I guess, naive. I was sort of saying, okay, but I have a physics degree, I worked at Morgan Stanley, I’ve got an MBA, I worked at Goldman Sachs. Like, I know women don’t raise, but I didn’t think it, it’s not me. I’m in, I fit in a different box. But even for me, it was really, really hard. Um, also the fact that I’m a solo founder, um, and investors tend to like when there’s multiple founders. I have two young children, so they’d be like, Well, how the hell are you gonna run a company and deal with all the stuff that comes with, you know, being a mum? Um, so many things. But for me, I was just like, I will find a way. I will find a way. I will keep going.

[29:14] Sammie Ellard-King:

But then they mean you, just sitting here in this like 30 minutes that we’ve been going so far. Like, it’s very apparent your drive.

[29:23] Ayesha Ofori:

You say that, but I went to countless investor pitches. Really? And what they would say to me is, yeah, we like it, but not sure if the market is big enough. Do women really want this? Whatever the I call them excuses were. Wow. And they’d sort of say, it’s not a no. Um, you just need to get a bit more traction. Come back to me, come back to me, come back to me. And after a certain point, I was like, I’m done with them. Yeah. And the turning point for us was getting into the Google for Startups program.

[29:54] Sammie Ellard-King:

Okay.

[29:54] Ayesha Ofori:

So Google had um a fund for black founders. It’s called the Google Black Founders Fund. I applied for that. We got in. Within two weeks of that PR going out, the same people that I had been speaking to before came back and was like, is it still open? Is it still open? Yeah. And part of me wanted to be like, I’m not taking your money. Like, you get lost after what you put me through. But I was like, no, actually, I need the money. So I will eat some humble pie. I will take the money. Swallow your pride. Exactly. Swallow my pride. Um, and at that time, I didn’t even take in as much money as I knew I needed to get to the point that I needed to. I probably needed to raise about a million and a half. But at that point, I just took in half a million because I was like, you know what? This has been so traumatic. I just don’t want to fundraise for a bit. So let me just take in this half a million, hire some people, start proving out the traction, getting those proof points, and then I can raise the rest of the money. And then it’s no longer me trying to convince them or them just believing in an idea. Then I’ll have some sort of data points and actually something concrete to go back to them with. And that’s essentially what I did. Um, hired engineers, that in itself is a whole thing. Yeah. I’m not a tech person.

[31:04] Sammie Ellard-King:

Yeah. Um you know how it launches the look and feel, but yeah. Exactly.

[31:07] Ayesha Ofori:

I mean, I did a bit of coding um in my physics degree. I learned C, um, not by choice. Yeah. No. It was sort of forced on me.

[31:16] Sammie Ellard-King:

But learn a bit of coding, but I didn’t know anything about it’s a different ball game, especially in the app world as well.

[31:22] Ayesha Ofori:

It’s like, but then how do you interview someone when you don’t know like the details of what they do? It was actually what that literally happened to me. It’s like, right, I need to hire engineers. Okay, let’s interview them. How can I interview them? Like, I can’t possibly do that. So luckily, one of our investors, who’s an absolute superstar um in the tech field and you know, was multiple CTO um himself. I sort of said to him, look, if I interview them for fit and personality and culture, can you do the technical interview? Because I can’t. And so that’s what I did. So then I found some, and this is why your network’s important. Um, so then I hired some engineers, we started building, we got the proof points, and then later I went out and raised the rest of the money. But at that point, I sort of said to myself, I just want to raise from individuals. Um, heard horror stories about VCs, had a couple of unpleasant experiences with some VCs myself. And I said, Yeah, I’m just not doing that right now.

[32:18] Sammie Ellard-King:

It’s so inspiring though. It’s the idea to like, yeah, no, let’s go make this happen. And also banged on loads of doors, didn’t happen, got the opportunity, those doors reopened down the line. It just goes to show, like, if you don’t quit.

[32:32] Ayesha Ofori:

Yep, 100%. Because there was somebody else who had a very similar idea. Um, she started a bit after me, but very similar idea to the point where um somebody we both knew said, Why don’t you guys just work together because you’re basically doing the same thing? Um, and I was actually open to working with her because I was much further ahead in my journey. So I had been through certain pitfalls and things and hurdles, and she sort of said, Oh no, but I don’t need to work with you because I’m gonna go out and do this and find this. And I’m like, I’ve already tried to do that. It’s actually really difficult. Like, just trust me, with what you’ve got and I’ve got, if we just pull it together, it’ll actually make things easier. But she was like, No, I’m gonna go do it myself. So I was like, oh, fine, she’ll go and do it. I’ll do what I’m doing, stay true to my course. And she couldn’t raise, she didn’t raise the money. Um, she didn’t raise as much as she needed to get it off the ground, and it all fell out of bed and she went off to do something else. So I think in her case, I think I I still wouldn’t have given up. Um like even for me when I started to fundraise and I couldn’t raise all the money I always needed, I took half a million and I said, I’m just gonna roll with that and I will find the rest later. Whereas I think other people are sometimes like, I need it all right now, otherwise they give up. But that’s just sort of not who I am.

[33:54] Sammie Ellard-King:

Um prototype, let’s build that, and then we can really come back to the market and say, hey, this is what we’ve got.

[34:00] Ayesha Ofori:

And I’m not gonna give up. Like I know that there is something great to be built here. I know it, I feel it. Yeah, so I’m not gonna stop.

[34:12] Sammie Ellard-King:

Let’s let’s jump into some of the reasons why, because it’s quite incredible. Um research from Fidelity found that women outperform men by approximately 0.4% every year. And then the Warwick Business School did a study and found it was actually 1.8%, um, which is actually quite incredible. But then we have the problem of actually getting women investing in the first place. Um and there was a study done by Fidelity again that 67% of women are now investing outside of the retirement accounts compared to 44% in 2018. So that’s growing, but it’s not enough, right?

[34:54] Ayesha Ofori:

Not by any means, not at the moment. So that’s the irony, right? When it comes to investing, women are actually great investors. And I think it’s because they tend to be more prudent. So a lot of people say that women are really like risk averse, like, oh gosh, investing is risky, so women don’t want to go anywhere near it. I don’t see that. I say women are risk aware. They have more questions. There are more things that they want to know before they move forward. But if you give them that information and they’re able to like assess the investment and the opportunity, just because it has a certain level of risk, they’re still potentially willing to move forward once you give them the information. Um, and I think it’s that prudence and that extra due diligence that makes them better investors potentially. Um, but as you said, women just aren’t investing anywhere near enough. We’re great at saving, but savings don’t move the needle as much as investing does. And sometimes people even use the words interchangeably, and it’s so frustrating. If you’re saving, you are not investing. It’s it takes a whole different sort of mindset. Like savings are things you do for short-term goals, like your emergency fund or something very short term. I typically say anything sort of less than three years, you should probably save for.

[36:08] Sammie Ellard-King:

Yeah.

[36:08] Ayesha Ofori:

But anything longer than three years, you should start to think about putting that money to work and investing, you know. And then I have another bracket, sort of three to five years, sort of shorter-term investments. And then anything sort of five years plus is sort of longer term, and then your pension. And how you put your money to work will vary depending on where on that line it is. But the investing part is very, very different to the savings part. And this is what we’re really trying to get across to women. And then when it comes back to the sort of risk thing, like investing in what I call sort of core, very vanilla, sort of generalized funds or ETFs. Like we work, for example, with Vanguard and BlackRock and some of their funds, slow and steady over time, that’s really all you need. And actually, the data shows, I think it’s with the S&P 500. If you invest for a 10-year period, your probability of loss is around 2%. If you invest for 15 years, I think the probability of loss drops to something like 0.02. I mean, how that’s not risky. So it’s actually about the time that you invest for. So if you’re investing for the long term, you can significantly reduce the risk. But yes, I get it. If you’re investing, and I wouldn’t even call it investing, but if you say, for example, bought some shares or something for like a few months or a year, yes, probably a lot of volatility, a lot of risk, but that’s not investing. I’d say that’s probably gambling. So if you’re actually investing in line with a true investment philosophy for the long term, by nature of the fact that it’s so long term, you significantly reduce the risk. So when people say to me, like investing in those types of assets is risky, I’m like, where? Show me the risk. You know?

[37:53] Sammie Ellard-King:

Yeah. And like the um comparison to gambling is that you’re playing with pure chance, whereas these are real businesses, yep. Some of the best businesses in the world, real people making real profits every single day.

[38:06] Ayesha Ofori:

Yep.

[38:07] Sammie Ellard-King:

And you are essentially tapping into a little piece of that when you do invest into these companies.

[38:12] Ayesha Ofori:

Absolutely. And if you invest through a fund, um, there’s likely a fund manager somewhere or a whole team of managers. And it’s their job day in, day out, to be looking at the underlying investments in this fund. And you know, those people probably have various different qualifications, like what I went through when I was in banking. So there’s a lot of smart people looking at this on a regular basis.

[38:35] Sammie Ellard-King:

Yeah, with an enormous amount of data.

[38:37] Ayesha Ofori:

Exactly. Yeah. So when you think about all of these things, I think the risk is more sort of in your mind. It’s not actually not doing it. Exactly.

[38:47] Sammie Ellard-King:

In my opinion.

[38:48] Ayesha Ofori:

And also there’s there’s always an element of risk in something, right? You know, nothing is completely risk-free. What people have to think about is the probability of that risk occurring. If the chances of it happening are so small, then it’s overall, I say it’s not that risky.

[39:04] Sammie Ellard-King:

Yeah, absolutely. So, like it’s quite stark when you come to look at the figures between men and women when they come to retire. I think the average retirement pot is just under 40,000 pounds for women and the average retirement pot for men just above 84,000 pounds. So that’s you know, less just double.

[39:22] Sammie Ellard-King:

Yep.

[39:22] Sammie Ellard-King:

Uh, which is pretty crazy. Obviously, there are some factors at play, you know, simply because of the makeup of uh, you know, men and women. Women usually birth the children and uh will raise them very much in the first couple of years at least, um, which obviously then has an effect on how much they can bring in uh and their careers, etc. So there’s that involved, which we do need to take into consideration. However, there are some bit other big factors at play. What’s some of the big ones that you see?

[39:54] Ayesha Ofori:

Yeah, so it’s a couple of things. So there’s obviously the gender pay gap. So the fact that men get paid more than women, that is closing. Um, and so I’d say it was more of an issue in the past. It is still an issue because we’re not at parity yet, but it’s getting better. So there’s a pay gap. As you mentioned, women tend to be the ones who, well, first of all, they have the children, but then they become carers predominantly for the children, and also tend to be the ones who become carers for sort of elderly relatives and things like this. So will take time out if that happens. Um, then also during menopause, a lot of women also take time out because of the various different um, you know, effects that that that they’re feeling. And when you add all of this stuff in, it’s essentially the time out of work um that has the biggest impact on a earning potential, but also how much they can accumulate. Yes.

[40:46] Sammie Ellard-King:

Um then also you’re compounding years, essentially.

[40:48] Ayesha Ofori:

Exactly. And you’ve got to think about, you know, time out and what happens to their pensions and things like this. But then it’s compounded by the fact that women then don’t tend to invest the money they do have, it goes to savings. So some of those factors that I’ve mentioned, you know, we can’t solve for. Or, you know, women are the ones who have the children. Yes, there could be more done in terms of like paternity leave and things like that. And I think we are making progress in some of those areas, but we’re not going to be able to eliminate them all completely. So the way that I look at it is okay, what are the things that women can absolutely change and have a direct positive impact? Well, put your money to work and put it to work as hard as you possibly can for as long as you possibly can. Um, and I don’t know, sometimes for me it’s like it’s so simple. Just you don’t even have to invest a lot or have a lot of money. You know, you can open an ISA with a pound. It’s steady, often consistent, even if it’s a small amount of money. Um, so that’s the message that I’m gonna keep drumming into people and just keep going over and over and over. It’s you know, investing isn’t just for the rich. You can invest with a small amount of money. What matters is when you start, so start as soon as possible, being consistent and investing for the long term.

[42:09] Sammie Ellard-King:

Yeah. We did a study uh the other day into like even waiting three years versus somebody else that doesn’t and does that whole like 35 years, and someone does 32 years.

[42:21] Sammie Ellard-King:

Yeah.

[42:21] Sammie Ellard-King:

It’s the difference is hundreds of thousands of times. So those even those small contributions earlier make an enormous difference. The time is the key factor with this.

[42:31] Ayesha Ofori:

But I think a lot of people don’t realise that. So I’ve actually put together an Excel model where I can show people this.

[42:37] Sammie Ellard-King:

And that doesn’t surprise me in any way, shape, or what can I say?

[42:42] Ayesha Ofori:

Excel is like my best friend. Um yeah, no, Excel is I love it. Um just so logical. It’s so easy to achieve.

[42:51] Sammie Ellard-King:

I can’t. I’m very much like, you know, have to write things out and see it in front of me. Excel, I’m just like, but for me it works.

[42:59] Ayesha Ofori:

And so what I’ve done is I’ve shown people like if you increase your investments, say you’re making monthly contributions, if you increase it just by a little bit, an extra 10 pounds or an extra 50 pounds, over 10, 20, 30, 40 years, look at this huge impact. As you said, if you start in investing now versus in three years’ time, over 10, 20, 30, 40 years, look at the difference. And it is meaningful. But people just assume, oh, it’s only three years, it doesn’t matter. Oh, it’s only an extra 10 quid, that’s nothing. Compounding. Einstein called it the eighth wonder of the world. Like it really is. And it’s it’s like it’s not a flat line, it’s linear, it it’s it’s not even linear, it goes up like this. It’s almost exponential. Yeah. Um, and that is the beauty of investing. It’s all in the compounding. And in order to benefit from that, you’ve got to stick at it. Yeah. Start early, invest often, and keep going.

[43:54] Sammie Ellard-King:

Yeah, I I completely agree with you. Now, like the the gender pay gap is something which is interesting because it is closing, but it’s still standing at the moment at 13.1%. Yep. That’s quite a stark difference over an earning lifetime.

[44:09] Sammie Ellard-King:

Yes.

[44:09] Sammie Ellard-King:

Um, hopefully that’s there’s more parity within that as we as you know we move and then this becomes a little bit more of a of a topic.

[44:17] Sammie Ellard-King:

Yep.

[44:18] Sammie Ellard-King:

Um, as it should. What are some of the things that you want to see in that space being done at the moment, which can try and close that gap?

[44:25] Ayesha Ofori:

Yeah, that’s an interesting one. I think it is definitely changing. Um, we’re getting more women sort of going through university and coming out with degrees and therefore getting better jobs. But I think then ultimately it comes down to the companies. Um, and it’s gonna have to be on them to make sure that they are paying women appropriately. Like, why do you have to wait until the government forces you to publish your numbers? Like, why? Why do you have to be forced to do it? Um, and I guess the argument, if I thought about the flip side, is well, you know, we’re companies, we’re trying to make as much money as possible. If we don’t have to give it to people, then we won’t. Um, but I think there should be sort of a base level of what is acceptable.

[45:10] Sammie Ellard-King:

No, I completely agree. And one of the things that I would say as well, as I’d add to that, is like I think that the older companies are still sort of stuck in their ways as such. And that kind of leads me on to my next point as well, actually, which is that the newer companies are much more open to the open work policies, you know, the you know, I need to go pick up the kids. Cool, go pick up the kids and work in the evening because we’re all doing that too, you know. And it’s like they’re being way more accepting about what has become modern life, basically amplified since COVID, and everyone realised that they could all be at home and still create a million dollar company or a million pound company or whatever that might well be, right? So I think we’ve become more awoken to that, but the older institutions. FTSE companies that perhaps haven’t.

[45:56] Ayesha Ofori:

And it’s hard to get dinosaurs to change.

[45:59] Sammie Ellard-King:

Yeah.

[46:00] Ayesha Ofori:

And I think that’s one of the problems. You know, they’ve been so used to the system being a certain way.

[46:08] Sammie Ellard-King:

Yeah, you’re here at night and you leave it.

[46:10] Ayesha Ofori:

Exactly. That they’re almost reluctant to change. But I think they’re going to have to change. Because what I see with younger generations is that they’re not prepared to accept the status quo. Oh no. And they won’t buy your products and they won’t interact with your company. So I think a lot of these big corporates are kind of going to get dragged into the modern ages, if you like.

[46:30] Sammie Ellard-King:

Yes.

[46:31] Ayesha Ofori:

Um, and they they won’t have a choice to some extent because I also think younger people are just sort of like, we’re just not prepared to put up with that. And that’s just not the life that we want. And eventually those older people are going to move on and newer people are going to come in and they’re going to have different mindsets. So I think over time we are going to get more change. And I think the the pay gap will decrease further. I think it’s going to take quite a long time still. I can’t remember if it’s like 250 years or whatever it is till we get to parity. So still a lot of work to be done, but we are moving in the right direction.

[47:06] Sammie Ellard-King:

Yeah, no, I agree. And there are some industries where it has closed almost to parity. And there’s others which are still extremely far apart, which is sort of giving that figure as an average, by the way. So, you know, we get it a lot. When we do posts on this, people go nuts. They’re literally like, no, that’s not true. Like, Sandra, my team’s paying exactly the same as me. And I’m like, Yeah, in your company.

[47:28] Ayesha Ofori:

Yeah, but not in others. Like, even in banking, it’s when I was there, I definitely initially was paid less than some of my male counterparts. And I only realised when I had a conversation with somebody and he let it slip how much he got earned. Sorry, he let it slip how much he earned. And I was like, hold on a second. We’re the same level. I’m doing just as well as you are in terms of assets and what you’re doing. Why are you being paid more than me? The problem is there’s actually, and I know this exists in other firms as well. Some firms have policies where you’re not allowed to talk about your pay. So then how do you say, well, he or she is being paid more than me if you’re not supposed to talk about it because you’re not supposed to know.

[48:09] Sammie Ellard-King:

It’s called three pints in the pub. Shall we go for a drink? Let me plow you with cheap tequila. And then we sit down. Exactly.

[48:19] Ayesha Ofori:

And then get all the information. Yeah. I mean, I didn’t even have to do that with him. Um, I think also once he saw the shock in my face and then he realised he was making more than me, he was like, ha ha ha ha ha ha, like I’m better. No, you’re not. I was like, I was like, no, you’re not. Um, but I can’t handle injustice.

[48:34] Sammie Ellard-King:

Yeah, and I agree.

[48:35] Ayesha Ofori:

For me, things have to be fair. So I march myself into my boss’s office and I was like, what the hell? This is not acceptable. Um, and then I’m like, I don’t care that I know or that you know I’m not supposed to know. I now know.

[48:48] Sammie Ellard-King:

And you’re gonna know about it.

[48:50] Ayesha Ofori:

Yeah, what do are you gonna do to make sure that I’m paid fairly? And then I remember when I was in there, I was like, I might as well just go for everything. And I was like, and I want a promotion.

[48:58] Sammie Ellard-King:

Yeah, I don’t want to, I don’t want a pension increase. I want no, I want extra holiday.

[49:03] Ayesha Ofori:

No, I just I just went for it. And then I said to myself, right, how can I make sure this happens? So I said to him, okay, what do you need to see from me to make sure I get my pay rise and I get my promotion? And he said, Well, in order to get this, you need to have this. And then in order to get this, you need to have this. So I went back to my desk, I emailed him and I said, Thanks for your time. Great conversation. It’s nice to know that when I hit this, I’m gonna get this, and when I hit this, I’m gonna get this. Then I had my targets. And so I said to myself, okay, I’m gonna smash those targets. Um, I now have something very clear to work towards. I’m gonna smash those targets, and then I’m gonna march back into his office and I’m gonna like give me my pay rise and give me my promotion. And that’s exactly what I did. And I and I got them.

[49:47] Sammie Ellard-King:

I love that. Now, I think that that’s you’ve got that in you. A lot of women, simply because like if we look at the way society has gone, like it’s like 1970 first bank account, 1990s credit cards, yeah. Like our mums who have been exp who experienced that are still alive. Yep. So it’s very much been handed down to us. And so, like, it’s only really like the last 20, 30 years that things yeah, that things have been like a little bit more in line, and then obviously we’re coming out of that, and that a lot of that’s still ingrained into society.

[50:23] Sammie Ellard-King:

Yep.

[50:23] Sammie Ellard-King:

So, like, women don’t feel like they can march into the offices and try to demand things because they’re still sort of learning about like what’s possible for them at the moment. Do you see that?

[50:34] Ayesha Ofori:

No, absolutely. And I totally appreciate that I have a certain type of personality. I always say that if I would have been born like centuries before things, like I probably would have got into a lot of trouble because I say what I think, I don’t tolerate nonsense.

[50:48] Sammie Ellard-King:

Yeah.

[50:49] Ayesha Ofori:

Um, and I totally appreciate that, you know, way back when it wouldn’t have been accepted. And some women just don’t have that in them. Um, but it it’s really important, I think. I think it’s up to each of us to try and find that thing within us to make sure that we fight for what is right. And you don’t have to do it in the way that I did it. You don’t have to kind of like storm in there and be like, you know, what the hell’s going on? There are other ways to do it. Um, my husband, my husband always says to me, he’s like, Ayesha, you’re a sledgehammer. He’s like, sometimes it doesn’t take a sledgehammer.

[51:25] Sammie Ellard-King:

No.

[51:25] Ayesha Ofori:

Um, and and he’s right. And there are other ways to do things. Totally. But it’s important to know your worth. You have to know your worth.

[51:32] Sammie Ellard-King:

That’s what I’m getting at. Yeah. It’s the worth, yeah. Yeah. You’ve got to get there.

[51:36] Ayesha Ofori:

Yep.

[51:37] Sammie Ellard-King:

Somehow, no matter how. If you’ve got to play a bit of a game, get people to like you or do what you need to do.

[51:42] Ayesha Ofori:

Yep, 100%.

[51:44] Sammie Ellard-King:

And us men, we can be played. I get played every day in my own house for whatever that might well be. Yeah. If even if it’s just to make her a cup of tea when she can’t get up, be asked to get up. But like it, you know, it it it has to be done, and sometimes, and that’s how you get ahead. But equally, men doing the same as well. You’ve got to play the game against your boss to get him to like you, to do the thing, yep, to get the more money out of it. So be it. Like, you’ve got to do that to get ahead.

[52:05] Ayesha Ofori:

No, 100%. And I think with women, I think there’s an element that comes from your upbringing and how you’re raised. Um, I see it in my daughters. Um, I’ve got a seven-year-old and a three-year-old. The three-year-old, oh my God, she’s gonna be a force. Um, I don’t know how I’m gonna get through the teenage years. I’m like, pray for me. Um, but after that, I can see it already. She is going to be an absolute force. And even my seven-year-old, um, very confident, you know, says what she thinks. Uh, excuse, she’ll be like, excuse me, that’s not correct. Um, and I’m just like, I love this. So I am raising them to say when they think something isn’t right, to have the confidence to speak up about it. Um, and I think for a lot of women, again, we just weren’t given given that opportunity. We were, you know, way back when it’s like we’re around, but we’re not really supposed to speak or be be heard from.

[53:06] Sammie Ellard-King:

Yeah, yeah. So it’s still like ingrained in you is very much as well, how your mother probably raised you as well and gave you those opportunities that my sister Well, my mum is a force as well. So yeah, exactly. Like my sister like scares the absolute crap out of me. Scares the absolute crap out of everyone, but then it also is just like only because she’s just so headstrong about what she wants, yeah, and like you just wouldn’t mess with her, but also on the other side of it, is probably the loveliest person I’ve ever met. Yeah, and so like she has got that and has definitely come from my dad and and her mum as well. We have different mums, so like it you know, I she’s found out about her that about herself. And now guess what? She’s doing great in her career.

[53:52] Ayesha Ofori:

Yep.

[53:52] Sammie Ellard-King:

Um, because she just doesn’t let anything slide.

[53:54] Ayesha Ofori:

But I think what you said there about her also being a nice person is really important because people assume that if you’re a woman and you’re really strong and you don’t take any, I don’t I don’t want to swear, you don’t take any you don’t take any shit from anyone that you know you start to get labeled and you’re a certain type of woman. I think we we need to step away from that. You know, we need to allow women to stand up for themselves, um, to be strong without there being labels or people trying to tear women down. And I think that, as I said, with my own girls, I can I can see that. And I want them to feel that they they can be that. Like even now with my younger daughter, you know, she says to me, um, she’s like, I want to be a fireman. I was like, okay, well, it’s a firefighter, but I I get what you’re trying to say. But yeah, if you want to do that, you can absolutely do that. Yeah, you know, you can do whatever you want to do.

[54:44] Sammie Ellard-King:

Absolutely. And that should be installed into everyone, I think. When it comes to investing, then let’s like touch on this because Propelle have really made it so simple, it’s very hard not to understand.

[54:58] Ayesha Ofori:

Yep.

[54:59] Sammie Ellard-King:

What has been the biggest barrier? Do you feel like you’ve got the the lady there wanting to put some money in, but the stumbling block is understanding the actual concept of investing. What work have you been doing around sort of bridging that gap?

[55:15] Ayesha Ofori:

So we have been first of all trying to understand what were the barriers, why weren’t women or why aren’t women using those existing platforms? And then trying to design Propelle in a way that they don’t face those same obstacles. So women have told us it’s been things like they lack confidence. So they second guess themselves. So it’s sort of like, even if they know what they should do, they’re sort of like, oh, but I’m really not sure. I need like a financial advisor or someone to tell me. And then in some cases, they said, Yeah, the financial advisor just told me what I knew anyway. So I’m like, right, how do we help them to have that confidence that they don’t need to have that additional check? Um, there were certain things that they would um sort of face barriers with when it came to sort of terminology and jargon and things like that. So in our platform, any jargon should be explained. And I we always say to our users, if you come across something that’s not, then we need to fix that. Then we haven’t done it right. You should be able to go the entire way through our platform and understand everything. If you don’t, let us know and we will fix it. And also things around just like when you actually get to the point where you want to make an investment, you know, you’re given this investment memo that you have to agree to. This like a 30-page document of, I mean, it’s legalese, it’s financial jargon. I don’t know if anyone actually reads them, but you’re supposed to read them and tick. Most people just scroll to the bottom. But I sort of said to my team, okay, yes, they’ve got to fill this in, but how can we actually help them to understand what’s in there before they just scroll to the bottom and press tick? Like, can we make a video? Can we simplify some of the concepts? Um, so this is what we’ve tried to do. And the whole point of our platform is that we want women to be able to come to the platform, be able to build their investment strategy, and then go on and invest according to that strategy by themselves. And there are various tools and things that we’ve built to help them do that. The first set of tools are being released this week, which I’m really excited about. Um and that’s the idea. So we say to women, right, at any point you’re not sure what to do or you get stuck, let us know. Like we’re building this platform for you. So we need your input. So we have testers, but we even say to our wider um, you know, community and users, like anything you don’t understand or you find challenging, let us know. Because if you’ve hit a roadblock, we have to fix it.

[57:35] Sammie Ellard-King:

Yeah. You’re building a real community there.

[57:37] Ayesha Ofori:

Yeah.

[57:37] Sammie Ellard-King:

Where they want to see you build these things so it gets better for everyone else, just like them. And it’s like everyone’s connected.

[57:44] Ayesha Ofori:

Exactly. And they they really get involved. Yeah. And they’re like, yeah, I’m happy to test, I’m happy to do this. And then even in some of the interviews, she’s like, Oh, I’m not sure if I should say, no, please say, like, you’re not gonna hurt my feelings. I’m like, if you think that shit, you don’t like that, tell me. Yeah, because we will make the changes and we will fix this. We are building this for you. We want to help fix your problems. If you don’t tell us what they are, then we can’t change the platform. And I think that’s the key thing. Like a lot of the other platforms out there were built by men. Um, I don’t think they intentionally tried to exclude women. It’s just if you’re not thinking about women and that they might have different needs or different uses, et cetera, then I mean it’s not surprising that it’s not really aligned to them. Whereas women are at the forefront of what we do. Every single thing, it’s like, right, how would this work for women? What are they likely to do? And even sometimes we get it wrong. I mean, we build things and it’s like, okay, yeah, this is really straightforward. They’re gonna go through, click here, click, click here, do this. And then we let some people in and then they do completely opposite. And we’re like, What?

[58:44] Sammie Ellard-King:

Yeah.

[58:44] Ayesha Ofori:

I’m like, that’s not logical.

[58:46] Sammie Ellard-King:

Yeah, but it’s just user engagement, isn’t it? Yeah, we see it on the like uh websites and sales pages because we like you can use Microsoft Clarity and you can see exactly where they’ve gone. Yeah, there’s like heat maps for where people go to. Yeah. And you’re like, what are you doing? All the information is at the top, and you’ve just gone right to the bottom. And yeah, and and like the data that are like people doing that, it’s just wild. And you’re like, I’ve set this page up all beautifully for you. It’s taken me hours, and you’ve just skipped to the bits, but you you have to know that, right? And um, I think that that informs you and helps make the experiences better for everyone that uses your product. So talk to me about the actual investing options on the platform. You mentioned the Vanguard and and BlackRock funds.

[59:27] Ayesha Ofori:

Yep.

[59:27] Sammie Ellard-King:

But you also have um some interesting other ones as well, right?

[59:31] Ayesha Ofori:

Well, they’re yeah. So when we first when we had our beta, we actually uh tested property investing first.

[59:37] Sammie Ellard-King:

Right.

[59:38] Ayesha Ofori:

Um, so we actually had Riots. No, we partnered with a property crowdfunding platform. Oh, interesting. And we wanted to help women invest in direct property because one of the things that I noticed was A, aside from the fact that that’s how I built my own own wealth, um when I think back to like our clients at Goldman, everyone had real estate and and quite a lot of it. It was it was like a staple. And so I was like, this is a tool that the wealthy use to build wealth. How do we give this to people who can’t afford deposits to go and buy whole houses? Yeah, you club everyone together. So we partnered with a crowdfunding platform and then we started to give women, we were testing it, so it wasn’t open to the wider audience. We had a testing group, they absolutely loved it. They invested in, I think it was across five deals, and when they started to pay back, they got really excited. They were getting great returns. Like some of the deals were giving 20% per annum. But 20%. Yeah. But what happened is all of those projects went well. And then some of the women were like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. I’ve got to put all my money. And I was like, oh my gosh, no. Like that’s not how you should be thinking about this. But because we don’t give financial advice, you know, people have to make the decisions themselves. I actually said, guys, I think we’ve jumped too far ahead here. We need to go back to basics. We need to help women understand the fundamentals and the principles, and that actually majority of your portfolio should be in these boring, I shouldn’t call them boring funds, but um, these vanilla funds, these staples. Um, you know, at Goldman, there was a strategy that we um we used a lot called core satellite. So the core in the middle is the vanilla staple stuff. Then you have a satellite layer around it, which is say 10 to 15% of what you have. And that’s where you do the funkiest stuff. You do the real estate, the hedge funds, the private equity, structured products, or access to IPOs in that case. And for me, that’s where this type of property fits in. It’s that layer around the outside. That’s not where the bulk of your money should be going in. But I feel because that’s what we tested first and they really liked it, they were like, oh, this is great. So what I said to the team is actually, no, we need to take it back. We’re gonna do the core assets first. Once we’ve, you know, helped women to understand that, then we’ll bring the satellite layer back. So the property isn’t on in the app right now. It’s built, it’s all there, it’s ready for when we come back. But we’re starting with these vanilla funds.

[62:04] Sammie Ellard-King:

So we’re working with the property side.

[62:07] Ayesha Ofori:

Uh is a it’s um one of the property crowdfunding platforms. So they have their their own deals and their own customers, but they have all of the regulatory licenses to do that. So rather than us go and get those licenses ourselves, yeah, we’re like, right, if we just partner with you and have a relationship, for us that that actually works quite nicely. And that platform exists. There’s nothing stopping people going to that platform um on their own. But what we found is there was that educational element missing because it was new to a lot of these women, they’re not going to go to that platform and invest directly because they want to understand it first. So we had a lot of educational content, a lot of webinars where we would help them to understand. So, like the info memos they would get with these deals, again, very similar, 30-page documents of jargon. We would break it all down on webinars. We would go through it with them so that by the time they actually got to the investments, they felt more comfortable. Well, that platform doesn’t do this. So that’s my view on why women just don’t go directly. Um, so right now we’re working with, as I said, some of the big fund managers, women can come and open ISAs or general investment accounts.

[63:16] Sammie Ellard-King:

Okay.

[63:16] Ayesha Ofori:

So we’re working with Vanguard. Um, we have three Vanguard funds. We have three BlackRock funds which have an ESG overlay because there were women who said to us, you know, if I can invest, still earn a good return, but do good as well, then that’s important to me. And then the final fund that we have is from HSBC and it’s a Sharia compliant fund. Um, I’m not Muslim, although a lot of people assume that I am, but I just realised that no one was really doing anything for Muslim women. And again, like when I set out to build Propelle, it was to help w women, all women. And so I said, look, I’m not Muslim, but we can bring in experts who can help us understand how to give them a compliant offering. And the really interesting thing is we have no Sharia compliant content on our platform, but we have Muslim women investing and at a pretty like decent rate. And so we started to interview them and we’re like, out of curiosity, like, how did you find us and why are you investing? And they said, look, we heard about Propelle and I just came because I thought I could, you know, learn the sort of general content, but then I saw you had a Sharia investment and I felt so seen. So I invested and then I started to tell everybody else.

[64:24] Sammie Ellard-King:

Lovely.

[64:24] Ayesha Ofori:

And for me, yeah, it was just that those messages, like I felt seen. I was like, how how is it possible that you’re unseen in 2025? So yeah.

[64:36] Sammie Ellard-King:

It’s just brilliant. It’s brilliant. And like I just love how focused it is. Like it’s you know, you could have just built an app.

[64:44] Ayesha Ofori:

Yep.

[64:44] Sammie Ellard-King:

But you’ve got no I’m making a stand and I’m you know going to help women, which as we all know, just desperately needed it. Yep. Um, you know, men have been up in their ivory towers investing for you know donkeys years now. So it it it is massively needed.

[65:02] Ayesha Ofori:

And sometimes it’s hard because you know, when I in the early days when I was fundraising and you know, a lot of the investors who were men were like, women don’t need this. You know, if you open it up to everyone, it will do so much better. And I was like, I I don’t think so. And I’m like, you know what? I’m gonna stay true to the mission. I agree, true to the vision. If they don’t see it, that’s fine. But but I know that as as I said, I feel it. I see the data. Exactly.

[65:26] Sammie Ellard-King:

You want to know, you wanna know in yourself as well, whether or not your mission stands true to what you want to do. And like sometimes that’s also just way more like it’s that gravity, that energy that you’ve got that you’re bringing to this. Yep. And that will essentially galvanize that whole community, in my opinion. I think it’s brilliant.

[65:46] Ayesha Ofori:

Absolutely, and it’s ironic because I’m like, I think that’s why it works so well, because we are very clearly for women. They immediately know it’s for them, and then they come and they like what we’re doing, and then they tell other women. And I feel like if I’d gone out as a generalist platform, we wouldn’t have this traction, we wouldn’t have got to where we were.

[66:04] Sammie Ellard-King:

No, because it’s hard enough anyway. And it is, I completely agree. The app launched in September 2024.

[66:10] Ayesha Ofori:

Yes, 25th of September. Nice.

[66:12] Sammie Ellard-King:

So you’re a few months in now.

[66:14] Ayesha Ofori:

Yeah.

[66:14] Sammie Ellard-King:

And what’s the plans for this?

[66:16] Ayesha Ofori:

Yeah, uh, world domination.

[66:18] Sammie Ellard-King:

We’re gonna take over the land.

[66:20] Ayesha Ofori:

Uh yeah, pinky in the brain. Um, so we have a lot of plans. Um, my product manager actually says to me, she’s like, Ayesha, we’re gonna pick like three things to focus on, and we’re gonna do those things well. I know you have a lot of ideas, but they have to go in the pipeline. So um there are a few things that we want to do um this year. Where, as I said, this week we’re releasing the tools. There are more tools that we’ve built. Um, we’ll probably release a few more of those as well. Um, there are some additional um accounts that we want to add onto the platform. So we really want to help women throughout their entire journey, whereas right now we’re just doing a part of that journey. So definitely other bits that we want to add. And I think for us, the focus is on really improving what we have. So, as I said, we released it, you know, end of September, beginning of October. We’re getting a lot of data, a lot of feedback, and we’re changing things around. And I love this. Like we are so data focused. So every Monday we have a really deep dive into the data. We literally look at where people are getting stuck, and then we’ll say, okay, right, we’re gonna change the user journey. We’re gonna move this bit over here and this bit over there. The the engineers will do that, we’ll push it through. Um, and then we’ll start to look at the new data that’s come through. And it’s like, oh yes, like now this part of the journey has increased by 20%. Amazing. And then we look for other points along the journey where we can make improvements. And I say that’s the key thing. We’ll also do um a big seed raise. Um, I actually feel better about fundraising now. Uh, I actually have VCs reaching out to me, and I’ve been very sort of cagey with our data and our metrics because I didn’t really have anything to benchmark it with. So I was like, okay, I think our numbers are great, but are they really great? So I was like, right, I’m gonna test it with a few VCs and see what they say. Um they’re like, oh my gosh, this is so encouraging. Um, one VC actually said, can we invest now? And I was like, no. I’m like, no. I’m like, no, no, no, no, no. I’m like, I love that you’re saying that. And like finally, rather than me having to chase investors, they’re coming to me. But I’m like, no, no, no, wait for it. There’s a lot more to come, and then I can raise it a higher valuation.

[68:30] Sammie Ellard-King:

100%. You’re doing the right move. Like you’ve got the cards in your favour now, and you can really play that to your advantage, right?

[68:37] Ayesha Ofori:

Like, we have the data. Like, so when they’re like, oh, women don’t want this, they’re not gonna do this. Yeah, they do. Yeah. And you can see it.

[68:44] Sammie Ellard-King:

Yeah, seems so obvious. But but they didn’t see it. But now they do. So I’m and I think it’s amazing. And I just want to say hats off to you because uh, you know, and I I really hope any uh women, but equally men uh that have women in their lives, show them this episode, yep, and show your friends and like let’s get this train going and hopefully we can help out. Thank you. Um, because yeah, I think you’re you’re fighting a good fight.

[69:08] Ayesha Ofori:

Thank you so much.

[69:09] Sammie Ellard-King:

It’s been a real pleasure having you on. Um, where can people find you when they come on?

[69:13] Ayesha Ofori:

Um, so a couple of places. So I’m on Instagram, I’m not great at it, but I am on Instagram. Um, I’m also on LinkedIn. LinkedIn is probably more my thing. Um, but my team keeps saying, Ayesha, you’ve got to do more, more Instagram, more Instagram. Um, and then obviously we have a Propelle um Instagram as well. But the best place is just to download the app. Um, we’ve got a lot of content in there. Um, I’m even gonna at some point this year start doing sort of live sessions in the app myself.

[69:41] Sammie Ellard-King:

Oh, cool.

[69:42] Ayesha Ofori:

Yep. So yeah, I say the best thing for people to do is to download the app.

[69:46] Sammie Ellard-King:

Yeah, I know. I agree. Well, we’ll leave links to this in the show notes for everybody if you want to go and check that out. But um, thank you so much for coming on. I’ve loved it.

[69:53] Ayesha Ofori:

My pleasure. Thank you so much.