Oliver Cookson: How Myprotein Grew From a £500 Overdraft With No Investors

This transcript is auto-generated and lightly edited for readability, it may contain errors.

[00:00] Sammie: Welcome back to the Money Gains Podcast. We have Oliver in the house today. How are you doing, man? Oh good summer, you? Yeah, mate. I’m pretty excited for today. Thank you. When you first reached out, I was like, this is gonna be so interesting to cover because like your story’s pretty sick. You started with a £500 overdraft and then ended up being worth hundreds of millions. And I want to go back before all of that because I want to just understand like what money was like for you growing up.

[00:31] Oliver: So money was um money was hard to come by. So just not going too far back, but I guess I was born in inner city of Manchester in a place called Withington, which is you know working class, um uh below in some places to be honest, in a bedsit with my mother and father. My dad was a second hard second hand car dealer, and my mum was a secretary uh for a pensions firm. So, you know, honest, hardworking people. Um, you know, cash wasn’t surplus. And we moved to North Manchester, a place called Bury, and then later South Manchester, where they uh went to school. So look, I didn’t have the latest things, and um there was always later on, my mother and father separated, and it was more of a struggle. So my mum was doing two jobs. I saw how much hard work is important, um, and it made me value cash, but it also instilled a desire to want better. Not that I’m there’s no um negative on my mother and father. Um, give me all the love, and but I wanted to, I didn’t want to have the struggles that they had. So that’s you know, that’s uh that’s that instilled that in me, I guess.

[01:34] Sammie: And as reading is quite interesting, school perhaps wasn’t the easiest for you.

[01:41] Oliver: Yeah, look, I’m a massive believer in not everyone learns the same way, yeah. Um, so academically I wasn’t it it didn’t, it went in one area and out of the other. Yeah, um, it’s like a memory test, a lot of a lot of things in school these days, well, but back then. So yeah, look, I got one GCSE, but it was a great learning curve and more of a social because I was a bit of a a hermit and I was a bit introverted, and or I still am, and um it brought me out of my shelf the last few years of high school.

[02:07] Sammie: Yeah, and and like it what I love about that is because you know you’ve got to where you are today, and it doesn’t matter about the grades.

[02:16] Oliver: Yeah, it doesn’t. Um it did on the modern apprenticeship because I left school at 16 and I did a modern apprenticeship. That’s sort of my wish on there. I’ve fudge I’ve fudged the results, but you know, it works it works out in the end.

[02:30] Sammie: So talk me back to that that day, you’re 23, you’re sitting in that garage with that 500 quid. Yeah.

[02:40] Oliver: What does day one look like? It was it was actually 22 when I had the idea, and it was in and it was in um it was in my bedroom at my mum’s house. Um so I had the idea, and then I spent spent six months building a website because I coded everything from the ground up in notepad. Obviously, there’s no frameworks like Shopify then. So I made the website, the warehouse management system, the whole order processing. So it was obviously a big build uh from ground up. So day one was just uh it was just part of the process, but it was obviously exciting. I put this website live, and I think it was like the the 8th of May or something in May 2004, and then I got an order, you know, a few hours after, and I was like, well, and another one, and another one. And every day since the first day, there was always more orders than the prior day, which in the whole eight years of my tenure, um, you know, which is obviously is obviously the right trajectory. And why and why did you go into that specific? So look, I’ve always been curious, I’ve always been entrepreneurial, and then I had probably two cliches. Uh, but I had a number of businesses before. But the with Myprotein, I was massively into going to the gym from 16. It was really uh when I found the gym, it was what I needed. I needed that discipline because I left school at 16. I probably was being a bit of a drifter. Um, let’s say, and then a bit of a rascal. Yeah, a little bit of a rascal, uh, but always with a good rascal, you know. Yeah, cheeky chappy, cheeky chappy, yeah, maybe. But then um, but the gym gave me that discipline, so it gave me something to every day to do, and that honestly, it’s probably one of the most best things I’ve ever done, that gym membership when I was 16. So that gave me a regimented discipline of going to the gym every day. I loved it. Obviously, when you go to the gym, it instills a good lifestyle into you. Yeah, and then um I I’ve always had a passion for websites or the internet and computers, and then obviously I was making them. So it was a it was a fusion of two of my interests, really. Uh, so I one day I was in my mum’s kitchen and I looked on, I was using ProMax, a Maximuscle product, which was the leading protein uh product of the time in the UK. And uh I looked on the back and said, What is this actually? Well, why are you even having here? Is it whey protein, flavours, sweeteners? Uh what is whey protein? So I went on to AltaVista because it’s pre-Google, and uh and it basically said whey protein is a byproduct of cheese. So from there I just found out how much whey protein was. It was three pounds a kilo. Uh if it had some flavouring, it’s going to cost me less than five pounds a kilo. I was paying £30 for two pounds, which is 908 grams. So I thought it’s a margin in that. I’ve got double them double the price, sell online, direct consumer, um, good margins, customers getting it cheaper. That’s that sounds like a good avenue.

[05:18] Sammie: It’s so interesting to hear that. Like just the mindset of it, like how you pull that together. Because when you first started, then so was it was there a lot of competition in the space? Because there is now, like you go in supermarkets, massive walls of it, and so many different brands, right?

[05:37] Oliver: But back then, you mentioned those two brands, but like was that it or yeah, so online I was I was the first, uh, pretty much. So that’s obviously what was the you know, first move of advantage was key. Uh, but there was there was a number of retail brands which as like say sold in, but it was nowhere near a mass market like now, you know, it was sold in more bodybuilding shops, yeah. The hype, right? Oh, absolutely, yeah. You know, it’s 22 years ago now. Uh so it was a trend that was like this, you know, fitness. Uh, but you couldn’t really buy protein powder in supermarkets then. It was mainly like um it was mainly in specialty shops, like bodybuilding shops and such like gyms. Yeah, wasn’t even in boots and stuff. That’s just fucking bad. It wasn’t wasn’t that it was not online. So I was, I guess I was the first person to do an online sports nutrition brand, direct-to-consumer, which we know in every scale.

[06:27] Sammie: The mapping is like even to like 22 years ago, like there was obviously like you know, early stages of like Amazon kicking into gear and stuff like that. So like it the the internet was happening, but it was like a pretty new yeah.

[06:39] Oliver: Amazon obviously was there from’96 or’94, uh, but the but they didn’t even sell non-Amazon products then.

[06:46] Sammie: Yeah, or they were heavily on books for books, yeah.

[06:49] Oliver: Today we’re the on the first bookstore online. Uh, we were the first protein company, obviously, obviously, and gone onto bigger things, but but yeah, that was it.

[06:56] Sammie: So you mentioned like you saw the orders coming in, was that Google Traffic?

[06:59] Oliver: So actually, I used um I used a bodybuilding forum called MuscleTalk. Um, so the owner of that is a guy called James, who’s actually one of the co-founders of Huel now. Uh and I I I really went after the the the the the the hardcore bodybuilding customer because we were that I felt that was the niche to go for. And this was we basically put a sticky topic at the top of the forum. This is like pre-Facebook and everything. So vBulletin. If you and then um, yeah, just put a sponsored post at the top and it came from there, really. That was the that was Mesa Troy, but then we did do Google AdWords and we’re getting conversions at £2.34 cost per acquisition, which is insane. You know, now you know 10 times that you’re not gonna get the good old days of ads, basically.

[07:44] Sammie: Yeah, so you mentioned obviously you like those sales started running in. When did you go from like, okay, I’m in my garage now, and now I need to like start thinking about this as a like a proper business and that talk to me about that, that evolution of that.

[08:00] Oliver: So look, it was um it was never it was uh I know it’s been documented as my garage, it was a it was um effectively the um like a like a building like this where you have multiple units within a big space. Yeah, yeah. It was like a 400 square foot room. Um so that’s where I put all the powders because in the morning I used to go to the the the the lockup, if you like, blend the powders, pack I packed to order by hand, then went to a full-time job because I was working 9 till 5 as a web developer, and then came back to pack the parcels into um into altars to send via Parcelforce. So that was my day, and then I guess once it started, I can’t remember the actual inflection point, but there was a point where it became too much. I couldn’t actually do, I was getting up at five, four, and there was a point where it was not literally not enough hours in a day. So I thought, okay, I’m gonna have to take um first of all. I employed um my mum as chief blender. Did you? Yeah, she came in. Love that. Uh she came in, took a took a took a uh she took a big hit on her wages actually, and then came in to do it, do all that. Then it came to a point where I I saw that the I can’t remember exactly where it was, but I left my job because I had a mortgage at the time for the first time as well. Right. So I was um responsibilities.

[09:12] Sammie: Yeah, yeah. And then that then, like, how did you get to the point where you were outgrowing that? Because it it grew pretty rapid from that point on.

[09:22] Oliver: It did, yeah. So I remember the actual there’s a good story. I remember the time when it when I thought, okay, this is actually really, really working. So Danny, the Parcelforce driver, had a good relationship with, you know, you know, he he liked what I was doing. He saw how much was I think he was rooting for me so you can probably like you again. So speed to him now again because I love that. Um but anyway, one day, so he used to come with like half a van full of parcels from other clients, and then just put like three, four, ten of mine in there. And then it got to a point where he had to go and drop his load off at the depot and then come back with an empty van. And then one day he did that, but then one day he said, Oliver, I can’t fit it all in my van. You know, an empty van, he came. I’m gonna have to phone one of my the other drivers to come and do a uh sweep. And that that was my wow, okay. Because then I realised, you know, only a few months ago I was not even filling half filling this van, and now I’m filling the whole van. So that was a bit of a moment.

[10:14] Sammie: I think like I’d love to know for you. You obviously mentioned the challenges of like full-time job, mortgage, and like the responsibilities and the sort of mind frame that you were going through there. But like you know, you built the website yourself, you’re doing the packing yourself, you got mum’s in the blending. Like, other than that, like what for you was that real like hard point going through all of that?

[10:37] Oliver: Oh it’s I think there was a lot of hard points. I I think this is something that is overlooked. So I think as a soul founder, especially, especially bootstrapped, it’s it there’s lots of it’s peaks and troughs, it’s not linear, you know. There’s so many dark days, and I think it’s never um talks about enough the mental health of an entrepreneur, especially because it is there’s this there’s tons of there’s tons of points throughout the growth. You know, it’s when you’re doing everything, there’s so much responsibility, you know, and then something doesn’t then something doesn’t work or the order doesn’t come in for the raw materials. It it is it was every day was a bit of a challenge to be honest.

[11:12] Sammie: Yeah, I feel you, man. I I go through that like every day. You have one day where you’re like flying, you’re on top of the world, like everything’s going well, and the next day you’re like, I just want to pack this all in and go and live in it. Exactly. And you just can’t, you know, you just got to remember tomorrow isn’t far away. Yeah, you just keep going. You gotta give it to you and I think that’s what stops a lot of people going into it because they have to be the packer, the HR, the the you know, sourcing, the social media, the website builder, almost all of it in one. And that can be quite overwhelming for people, do you think?

[11:42] Oliver: Yeah, it is. It’s I think when you think of it and you sit down and you start thinking about it, I think that’s where you start to fear starts to come in and you start to over overthink, if you like. Um, I think the first step’s one of the hardest.

[11:56] Sammie: A lot of people are gonna be listening to this and they’ve got an idea knocking around in their brain, and they have for ages, right? And they’ve probably gone, oh yeah, you know, that would be such a good thing, and the world needs that, but they you know, wait for the right moment or need a bit more money to get it off the ground or more experience in X, Y, and Z. What do you say to that individual?

[12:16] Oliver: Look, I think you you your brain is a powerful tool, your mind’s a powerful tool. It can create a story for anything, really. It can talk you out of anything. So I need this, I want that, it’s not the right time. You’re always gonna, these are all things come from fear. Uh for me, it’s you know, you can’t be you can’t be too a gung-ho, but realistically, if you’ve you the first I think for me, failing is not trying. That’s you know, that’s that’s the bottom line. And you know, don’t give up your house and don’t put a big mortgage on your uh, you know, remortgage your house or take you know silly risks. But if you can start something in your spare time or on weekends, and everyone’s got spare time if if it’s something you believe in, then do it. You know, you could it’s so easy now to compare to how it was to try a an MVP, a minimum viable product, you know, you could just throw a Shopify website up or do some consulting on the side, or whatever it may be, and just try it. And you know, give yourself I I would start out with what good looks like. So after one month or whatever it may be, what does good look after the month? You know, would it be uh X leads, X conversion, retention, whatever the KPIs are, and then at the end of the month, just go, if these numbers stick, then you know, you might as well roll.

[13:25] Sammie: How does it so like if they’re sitting there thinking, is it your your message is basically get involved and try it? And if I think what something you said there sparked that in my head, which is like, I feel like what we feel like business is is that it’s just gonna be like, I’m gonna do it and I’m gonna go like this. And so we put that expectation on that. And when you said that you could give your spare time and do your weekends and stuff like that, it sort of takes the pressure off it a touch.

[13:52] Oliver: Exactly. Exactly. It takes the pressure off, and I and I think this is just the thing, this is one of the most common things I find that people don’t start it. It’s it’s other people’s validation as well. People don’t do it because what if I fail? And people think I’ve left my job, how silly of me, and now I’ve failed, I’ve let my wife down, my children down, my whoever down. Uh for me, I think you know, you should be proud of you you made that step, and it might not work. There’s no failure in that, there’s no shame in that. You know, that’s that’s that you know, you’re brave for doing it. Um, there’s no mulling around, there’s no sobbing about it, you’ve just got to move forward. But I I believe these um, you know, you’ve got to face your fears in that sense.

[14:28] Sammie: You will learn so much as well. So much. Like, and the resilience you’ll get from like failing is just like it’s priceless. So if you do go back into work, you’re gonna be so much more of a powerful force.

[14:41] Oliver: Absolutely. And if you do go back into work, if it doesn’t work the first time, I can assure you within a few years you’ll be doing it again. Once you’ve had that bug.

[14:48] Sammie: Yeah, I this is Up The Gains, is my like 20th business. Like, honestly, and I must have tried everything. And you just do, you just do little things here and there, and also it’s like you try things out, and then you might actually get six weeks into it and go, This ain’t for me. Yeah, and like you don’t know that until you try that, otherwise you still got that idea knocking around.

[15:10] Oliver: Exactly. And for me, I uh one of the one of the key things I always one of my mantras, if you like, is never leave a uh a what-if question. So I never if I if I want if I have something in my mind, I should try that, or why don’t I do that? I’m gonna do it because I don’t want to be in 10 years from now go, what if I did that? That’s something I wouldn’t be able to live with. So I’ll always, I’ll always uh never leave a what-if question.

[16:18] Sammie: You never took on investors. No, I owned 100% of Myprotein the whole way. For anyone listening who doesn’t know why that matters, can you explain what that meant for you when you eventually sold it?

[16:32] Oliver: So uh so I kept full equity, so I didn’t have there was no co-founders, there was no mentors, there was no uh NEDs, there was no investment of any form. The only the only debt I had in the business was a £500 overdraft, which was paid back within the first week. And that was, you know, that wasn’t by design, that was just because that was all I had the option to. I didn’t have any other option. I didn’t know, I was pretty naive then, you know, I was green behind the ears. So um what it did entail, and what I didn’t know at the start was control. And this sounds maybe control freak, but it’s so important in business for me to keep control uh because there’s just so many issues with uh decisions, delays, you know, typically partners always will have conflict at some point. Yeah. Um so yeah, and obviously then the upside, the equity, you get 100% of the returns, yeah.

[17:23] Sammie: It’s not bad, eh? It’s not bad. I feel you, because we’re we’re building a gains app at the moment, and you know, there’s partners, there’s co-founders, and even like yesterday, my entire day was legals, and it was like the worst day ever. But it had to all be done, everyone needs to be on the same page. But even then you sort of think, like, oh, you know, if this wasn’t there, we could just get on with building the thing. Um, so I yeah, see where you’re coming from. Um so you sold Myprotein, correct? You’re in your early 30s? Yes. But suddenly there’s quite a bit of cash in the account.

[18:03] Oliver: Yeah, there’s a decent chunk of cash, yeah. What does that actually feel like? Yeah, this is a question I’ve been asked before. Uh I it didn’t honestly, you know, one day, um, you know, a few million, the next day, you know, nearly 40 million. In but it’s it it just felt it didn’t, it seems it didn’t feel anything different to be honest, because it’s part of the process. I already knew it was happening. It wasn’t like I put a lottery ticket on and I won the money as unexpected. This was part of the process. This is what I’ve been working for.

[18:31] Sammie: Yeah.

[18:32] Oliver: And this was a delayed gratification because I was very, I, you know, as as Myprotein grew, I was very I didn’t go chasing after shiny objects. I always kept reinvesting. I did write myself a one million dividend when I was about 26, and that was a bit of an aha moment, but I didn’t buy a Ferrari or didn’t do anything lavish. I kept some looking at a bigger prize down the track. Yeah, yeah, I love I love that.

[18:54] Sammie: So you did take some out on the way. Yes. Yeah. To live. Yeah, and and enjoy.

[18:59] Oliver: I think I bought a house with with that, yeah. Fruits of labour. Yeah, yeah. It was it wasn’t it wasn’t on a you know, it wasn’t expect it was investments.

[19:06] Sammie: Well, I like I like that because it’s interesting. I listened to um Borisa to Billionaire from Andrew Wilkinson, and he sells, and he was like, the mo the moment it hit his account, he was in his 20s, he did the exact opposite. So he did the whole like, oh my god, a lot of money, Porsche, house, you know, boats, or the whole lot. And then he realised later on that actually that wasn’t what he was searching for, and went back into like actually doing the thing that he loved. And so I wanted to ask you that question because I was really interested to see like how that played on your head. Like you see that figure in your account, like do you become a different person instantly, or did I I honestly didn’t.

[19:50] Oliver: I honestly didn’t. It it obviously was a proud moment. Um, you know, because obviously it was a it secured um, you know, score mine and my children’s a children’s children future. But it’s um yeah, I think I had a few an hour or two of like smiling and sort of right back to work, sort of thing. Yeah. It’s not you know, that this is one chapter and you know, there’s there’s a whole book to write at. I love that. I love that. What did you do first? I actually can’t remember. It was not I think so. When I sold Myprotein, uh so we were in a it was a 26 hours the the uh writing signing off to SPA to search sales purchase agreement. Um it was trade sex hours non-stop. So I went and came back. All the lawyers were stayed awake. God knows how they did it. But the um but it was such a long slog that I was pretty just it’s more of a relief thing at the end of that.

[20:43] Sammie: Yeah, yeah. I love that though. But um things went wrong with the company after you sold it. Um, without getting too technical, what happened and how did you find out you’re gonna be able to do it?

[20:53] Oliver: Yeah, so nothing went wrong with Myprotein. So look, when I sold it, we were making on a runway over six million EBITDA. Uh so it was obviously a very healthy business as a cash cow. Um, and when I bought when I so I sold it to a company called the Hut Group, and um there’s a there’s a process. I was going to the the original thing, Sammie, when I went to Cellabus was to do a minority minority sale. So I wanted to sell a minority stake, get a strategic investor in, which was going to help with the expansion because we were number one in Germany, I see France, Spain, Ireland, UK at the time, and I wanted to roll out more East, so Eastern Europe, Asia, and I wanted to bring in a strategic uh PE firm to help that who could bring not just dumb money, I wanted some sort of scale, basically. Yeah, yes. Not even capital, because we were very cash rich. It was more the strategic values. They had they knew how to uh to roll out and had the contacts to help roll out the international rollout. Gotcha. So um, but then the the PE started to chip and started to do the usual tricks, and the Hut Group came in with a clean offer, 100% equity, half of it cash, half of it rolled into the Hut Group. Um and it’s something interesting. There’s no restricted covenants, there was no uh there’s no scary provisions in there, which which uh which is common with PE. Um and it looks a good business. And I met the the founder, CEO, and he he had a good vision, he spoke a good game. Um and they said they were making uh about five million quid EBITDA. Um so we did some light due diligence, and but it transpired that I was fraudulent. Um, and I’m not using that word like that, it was found in the in the high court. Um, and they were making minus one. So obviously, Myprotein is a much bigger business. So obviously not ideal.

[22:37] Sammie: And obviously, there’s there’s ongoing conversations there, but we won’t get into that right now. But the um I would love to know.

[22:45] Oliver: like you’ve you’ve said you don’t regret selling um but today Myprotein is has grown yes does that weigh on your mind at all it did it did I think the the the the reason it it was more weighed on my mind more is because of obviously the the you know the the um the way it was sold in the end because obviously it was uh school degree there uh that was frustrating but look it’s an expensive lesson uh I’ve learnt and uh it won’t happen again but you know it’s uh on you know that’s one chapter closed and on with the next one. What what’s next for you now? So I’ve got um so work so Verve is my main uh direct to consumer business which is really focused on longevity but I’m obsessed with uh health fitness so this is a bit of an extension of my obsession so there’s no one really doing longevity well within the uh in a premium space but the business that so that’s that’s going has been going for three years the business I’m super excited about is called Zenor Zenor which is um I’m not told anyone this year actually but it’s I’ve been working for 18 months got a real great team of developers working on it uh and it’s as you can appreciate we’re basically a layer so ambitious people don’t need more data what we they need is better decision making so clarity on decisions so what I’m developing is a performance intelligence layer that sits above most all and helps ambitious people or people with wanting to strive better in life on making those decisions better. Okay. So it’s a whole new category. That’s interesting. So I made a category of Myprotein and this is this is going down another category.

[24:25] Sammie: So how would that work then then? So they would utilise that tool to essentially hold themselves to accountability?

[24:31] Oliver: It does it so it creates you accountable it helps guide decisions it uses various inputs to help do that autonomously. Nice. So it’s going for closed B to the in April and then it’ll be launching in uh happy to put you on the group if you want. Oh absolutely yeah uh if I qualify as an ambition yeah no I um I need something like that in my life I think everybody does I think there’s a lot of people that do and I think this is going to be something that well it’s one of those things when when you see you go this is a simple but good idea which all best ideas are in with hindsight and also I think in a few years people go I I can’t I can’t function at the same level without it. Yeah so app based? Yep it’s gonna be a web app to start because we want to do a lot of uh changes as it goes on it’s there’s a lot of there’s a lot of work in the you um in the AI UX so the is it’s it’s working really to make it we don’t want it naggy we don’t want it too intense so it works it’s very adaptive so it depends on the person some people like it more straight some people more verbose it’s it’s it’s 18 months of development it’s a lot there’s a lot have gone into it.

[25:40] Sammie: It’s funny you say that because like I think um so I got I had a PT last year for like a whole year because I was a I was a I was a I was a big lad.

[25:49] Oliver: I’ve lost a lost lost a few kilos to say the least but I he said to me oh like how do you want to be spoken to and I was like I actually want you to like call me out and like basically call me a bit call me a little bitch like that’s what I that’s what when you do and then when he did it I didn’t respond really well and then he was like um like you’re not responding to that and then he started doing the whole like arm around like well done well done keep going another rep like and I like flew so in my head I’m like oh I I want interesting yeah but actually what I responded to was like an arm around yeah so it so this is what it’ll do as well I’ll show you blind spots not that it’s a blind spot but you know you thought you’d respond better to you know kick up the ass as it were but you you know you needed that cuddle yeah yeah so but this is this is this is the yeah this is uh you know everyone’s different so talk to us a little bit about verve though because that’s that is a really cool brand and I don’t want to brush over that because it’s like you know you kind of come out you kind of you’ve gone back in in a way yeah I have look so when I sold Myprotein a few years after that I set up a business called Go Nutrition yeah which was if I’m honest with you Sammie it was built from the wrong place it was built from um uh you know Myprotein me-too company and it wasn’t really done in the in the right vein but verve is verve is come from I used to every morning I used to make a concoction of uh ingredients so lots of healthy ingredients and functional ingredients that I felt give me fuel for the day and there’s about 30 40 50 ingredients there so effectively what verve is a launch product was 80 ingredients in one shake that you just have so I actually did made it and a friend came around to my house and said what’s this explained it to me so you should sell that um so that’s that’s where it came from is it kind of AG1 yeah it’s similar to that right but the the main difference the one of the key differences is AG1 uses what’s called proprietary blends so they lump say 10 ingredients together and give you a total but I can tell you now I’m not um not saying AG1 do this but knowing being in the game uh they they basically put a sprinkler the expensive stuff and then fill it with the with a filler so it’s a label claim so for me I didn’t want to use that product because I don’t know what I’m actually having you know so I created a product where we actually detailed to the milligram every single ingredient. And I think that’s it should be a minimum requirement you should know what you’re putting in your body. What I was just about to say like is that not no it’s it’s still a it’s a loophole really in the in the labelling laws.

[29:23] Sammie: So when you see James Smith calling out all of the creatine gummy people and they’re like they he actually measured how much was in all of those gummies and it’s just a disgusting amount it’s it’s it’s not it’s it’s exactly the same as a labelling claim. Obviously a gummy you know you need to take a minimum of three to five grams of creatine monohydrate a day you can’t literally fit that physically into a gum no no no no so it’s just like it’s just one of those market employ ploys it doesn’t literally nothing so what’s the key ingredients then in in verve then what what’s it designed for us to do?

[29:52] Oliver: Yeah so look that was the flagship product transparent greens so the key ingredients are obviously the greens so uh chlorella wheatgrass uh spirulina um a couple more that can’t remember then it’s got the adaptogens which are more herbal products like Ashwagandha you’ve got use full stack of vitamins um and quite a lot of other functional ingredients some mushrooms as well but we sell so we’ve got the greens products we’ve got a functional mushroom products uh we’ve got a sleep uh aid product it’s a sleep um optimizer some magnesium base and a few other products as well mate wicked i i love this uh i’m definitely gonna check out verve but um you also set up cookson’s first aid yes you trained over 2000 people in CPR and partner with the British Heart Foundation to get defibrillators into communities why does that matter over 30,000 now so we’ve done um so Cookson First Aid is we’ve got a few years what I you know obviously I made a lot of money and I wanted to give something back I know that’s a bit of a cliche but I think that’s the it’s the but I didn’t want to do gala dinner I didn’t want to do fundraising and all the usual things. So I thought what is the most important thing that you could do for someone in the life period and it is saving someone’s life. You know if you’re sat on a bus and someone who you’d never met before keels over and you can actually save the life which CPR can do because um you know how important it is if the first nine minutes will deter whether the life’s saved or not and an ambulance typically is not going to be there in nine minutes. So I thought okay saving the life is the most important thing you could do why are we not training people in life saving schools why we’re not training people in CPR why does it cost money these people in disadvantaged communities who just simply can’t afford this. So I thought that’s my mission I’m gonna train people uh and I’m gonna fund it and that’s what we’ve done was trained 30 000 people now in in greater manchester where we’re rolling out to London Leeds Liverpool um 30,000 in Manchester yeah that’s class yeah that’s incredible and what do people do do they just come along to like the clinic yeah so we we we we actually use we’re so mobile so we go to community centres we go to schools we go to offices uh we go to churches wherever uh we find community groups really we get in the thick of it in the weeds of and um yeah it’s it’s it’s really you know we’re we’re we’re we’re more training more we’ve got like four three foot full-time trainers now uh we’ve got a team of six and cooks and first aid you know it’s a big it’s you must be really proud of that I am proud of it yeah I’ll be more proud when when I reach the goal which is every city we want to do in-person training but the next next phase is cooks and first aid version two because if you go onto YouTube and you type first aid training it’s very um laborious it’s not very interesting it’s quite academic so what we’re gonna do is like a um uh like a Joe Wicks versus first aid training so a bit more sharp punchy you know a bit more bit more neat function yeah couple bangers and there and exactly it is it is uh there’s white space there I think so we’re gonna so the aim is um we’ve launched a new campaign called be the one which is to train be the one that saves someone life we’re gonna train a million people online that’s the that’s the next goal oh cool any way we can support like on that that I think it’s absolutely incredible you’re doing that um thanks Sammie I just appreciate it yeah I I really do I think it’s a is I really you know I was when I read about that I was like wow that’s just yeah it’s a good way of because you’re right you see a lot of the banners and they don’t know what to do with their money and they go oh you know I’ll give a million quid to this charity and they don’t they feel like they’ve ticked that box then.

[33:23] Sammie: Exactly. So it’s like well have you like where what what actual difference is that making I’m sure it’s making some difference I’m not saying anything it’s not but and I love the fact that you like highlighted a particular problem and then we’re like right I’m gonna save some people’s eyes.

[33:37] Oliver: Yeah I look for me I you know I’m good at some things and I’m bad at some things and what I’m good at is building businesses. So this is a social enterprise obviously it’s non-for-profit and I thought I might as well use my skills on building something impactful and it’s gonna outlive me I want to ask you about how you view money now like obviously we’ve gone through your journey you’re in this position now you’ve got multiple businesses very successful gentlemen uh like what what do you think about it now?

[34:05] Sammie: Has it changed and do you view things differently? Do you see it more as a tool? It’s a good question.

[34:12] Oliver: I guess look as as I said at the start of you know I do value money I’m first generation so I still do it’s been a long learning curve to realise how wealthy I am I still don’t understand it sometimes I’m still I’m not I’m not um uh uh I’m not I’m not tied to anything like this so but it’s uh I you know I do value money but I’ve become more loose as it were and to value you know to enjoy life um have you let yourself go uh yeah to a certain extent but I don’t like waste even you know just in anything in life I think waste is is is is uh I don’t like operational efficiency I don’t like wasting things I get it um and that’s just how I am I guess it’s just so interesting because like people would think you get to that point and you just go foot on gas let’s let’s let’s have it do you know what I mean but you but like I imagine it you have to almost train yourself if you’re not like that as a human you almost have to like train yourself out of that and that’s why I say with like couples when you’ve got one who’s like a complete and utter spender and one who’s like the saver or will literally drive down the road for a 10p like reduction on the mints that they’re gonna buy right literally and they both have to train themselves to like be more balanced and so I just wanted to ask you that because it’s like with you you have like you have access right you can basically tomorrow go and do whatever you wanted to do if you really wanted to do right there’s not really much on the planet that you couldn’t do rather maybe even like fly to space things so like how do you train yourself because you’re obviously big on your fitness how do you train yourself to like pull the some things and let yourself like okay I’m gonna get that I’m um it’s it’s work in progress honestly still it’s still working you know I’ve been I’ve been wealthy since my mid-20s you know and probably since very wealthy in the last six years or so the um but it’s it’s um yeah it’s it’s sometimes I’ve just got to I don’t want to lose it completely though I need to I want to stay grounded it’s important to me I want to remember where I’ve come from and it’s I don’t want to just completely cut ties and become that person because that’s not who I want to be. Yeah yeah no I get it and you know you don’t want to just suddenly be this person because you feel like society’s telling you you need to use your name exactly that but obviously now you know I’ve got multiple properties around the world I enjoy myself I you know fly first class I stay in nice hotels so you look I’m not I’m not cutting corners but I don’t you know I don’t see the value in just wasting money or I always buy or buy things or invest with with my mind not not my ego.

[36:51] Sammie: You’re a big business builder yes so you’re taking risks in in day in life to start these businesses putting capital into play do you invest alongside those businesses or do you use your business as your sole investment?

[37:04] Oliver: No I’ve got a my my I’ve got quite a good diversification in my investments. So um I have a an excellent CIO in my family office who who manages my portfolio. Nice so that’s a yeah around 60 won’t go into too many details but 604 is split across all the usual equities and bonds and um uh yeah the usual mixes if you like obviously does a lot more things that I are above my pay station it’s you know he’s a he’s an absolute you know he knows his stuff um and then obviously property I’ve just bought a historic building Citizen to Manchester um which is going to be converted into a five star hotel run by one of the leading operators and and hotels. Oh cool that’s more of a legacy asset and then um and then the yeah then businesses I guess they’re my key investments.

[37:54] Sammie: So yeah it’s really interesting because people say stay in your lane but then you you like you’re now diversifying.

[38:00] Oliver: Yes yeah I am yeah I’ve diversified well for a while but the hotel is obviously another step out um I guess to see that more hotels sorry why hotels well it’s more it was more to do something in my city is a legacy so it’s a very it’s this it’s a listed building it’s right in the centre of Manchester uh it’s called Sheena Simon for anyone who knows Manchester and um it was it’s a it’s got a lot of heritage so it was in the world war it was a hospital it’s since been a college it’s a place of learning okay um so and it’s been run down kind of near the station yeah it is yeah yeah yeah I know exactly where it is and um it was a college and it’s been it’s a little bit not I want to say heavily dilapidated but it’s certainly been run run run in and um you know to have the opportunity to re to to bring that back to life and um invest back into the city that made me and you know create you know create a corridor in there of like a um a heritage walk you know showing the the the the provenance of the building to be able to do that and then have something in in in the city that I’ve helped re bring back is is a powerful thing I think.

[39:06] Sammie: I I agree like it’s nice to restore like I I love old buildings. I think there’s just something magical about them right and then you bring it back to life.

[39:14] Oliver: Exactly and it’s it’s it’s my it’s it’s a legacy that’ll last you know outlive me and you know businesses and my investment portfolio won’t this well. Hotels is a tough game though so it’s yeah well one of the leading uh operators for of hotels brands is is in okay um interesting so we’re 95% now on partnering with them so they’re they’re gonna yeah I think they’ll they’ll they’ll deliver they’ll smash it yeah yeah so I’m not getting involved in the operations of it I’ll stay out of that one I’m I’m hitting up Alex and your team when that’s opening I want to come up yeah I want to go through um you’ve been open about mental health and the pressure of being an entrepreneur um I think it’s a really important topic and I I know we touched on it briefly earlier but I think for you if you’ve clearly gone through like what the big ups and downs of I think it’s important not just for people like that are in businesses but also in jobs as well like we all go through ups and downs you’re clearly a like extremely resilient person to get to where you are today like what helps you get through it I think these it’s the it’s the um I think it’s my ambition as a key driver I’ve I’ve always set targets with myself okay and if I and it’s that 10 year view again if I look back at myself and think oh why didn’t you why did you give up then or why did you stop and I’m letting myself down if you if you got if you let yourself down who else you know that’s the for me that’s the worst thing that you can do because you’re I’m responsible now for a lot of things a lot of people uh whether I like it or whether I don’t and there’s a lot of pressure with that uh but you know pressure is a privilege I’m very lucky to be in this position and I take it with great um great respect and I don’t want to let me down which then in turn let other people down I couldn’t live with that so as long as I try everything that I can do within my my being to do it then that’s okay but if I give up or I start losing sight of it for selfish reasons, for ego, for all of these external factors, then I I will never forgive myself do you think a lot of that comes to that moment where you join that gym that we are back to that beginning conversation that this yeah it’s it’s that it’s those it’s those things that um yeah I guess it’s a it’s it’s something that’s instilled in me from a young age you’ve said on a podcast before be reasonably unreasonable with yourself. Yeah yeah I look I don’t know if everyone will agree with that but I guess that’s something I am you know it’s if you’re just reasonable with yourself it’s it’s comfort zone yeah the the best things always happen outside of that so you’ve got to edge yourself a little bit and push yourself. I don’t like to be with other people really but I don’t mind sometimes because I know I am with me. I’d never ask someone to do something I wouldn’t do myself and I’ve demonstrated that a lot and I lead by example so yeah I like to be a little bit tough on myself but I think that’s that’s okay. Is it where you know you say oh I’m gonna do X well if I can do it in 60 days what I’m gonna do in 40 do you do it like that um is it this type of mentality um I I guess it’s not too much pressure on I’m not too pressurised about the timeline it’s more the outcomes okay so look there’s lots of deviations between now and 60 days uh but as long as I know I’ve given everything to to to get there look everyone’s has an off day you know if you’re tired one day you’re not gonna work function as well as you are when you when you’re not so um you know I have restraint but I just you know if I decide to uh sideline somewhere to go and do something which isn’t very productive for a while and and it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s a bit silly to do that then I’ll be a bit hard on myself for it but look I enjoy myself as well it’s a balance but I guess I’d just like to to push myself and continually improve I don’t want to rest on my laurels.

[43:02] Sammie: So how how does someone that’s you know perhaps wanting to push themselves a little bit harder but they don’t know how like what what what would you do with them?

[43:10] Oliver: So I have I have um I have a like a framework that I run by um and this is what Zenor is I’ve actually translated my framework into into a into a intelligence with different variables for different people but these these simple things that I do this one of the one of the very trivial sounds trivial tricks not tricks little things that I do for 25 years every single day I do three positive things before I close my eyes okay um it could be so at the start of the day I write three things down that I must do and I will not sleep until I’ve done them but it could be very trivial it could be um go to the gym go to the gym it could be watch one of your podcasts which was one of the my on my three lists yesterday which I did um it just just whatever it may be as long as the positive and is that it’s it’s a small thing or it could be a medium thing it could be a big thing it has a compounding effect so for every day for 25 years in my life I’ve done three things and that the compounding effect of that is you know you can’t measure it really.

[44:09] Sammie: It’s really interesting you say that because I’ve um a friend of mine Mark Whittle is a performance coach he wrote a daily journal book and I got that and within it then there’s five things you fill out but it’s like set yourself the task the previous day for the following day within three things. Oh right okay within that and I’ve been doing that since December right and the number one the pressure you take off yourself a little bit because you’re like you write oh well I’ve done this and I achieved that today so you’re like yeah fair play yeah you did you you you did what you said you were gonna do like well up mate and then you don’t have because we a lot of uh you know especially me like co-founders I’m a little bit ADHD as well so I sit down and I’m I can get scatterbrained I’m like over here I should be doing this I should be doing this I don’t do it I don’t do it don’t do it and then eventually you you’re annoyed at yourself right but just by having that one big task on there and then a couple of little ones I’m like as long as I do that today that is a successful day. And then I can’t tell you how like much that’s compounded in two months. Right wow so God knows what 25 years looks like.

[45:21] Oliver: Yeah yeah well look it’s it’s it’s good it’s good to hear that that’s not just me then but it’s something it’s it’s it’s just uh I do it in the morning but I guess there’s different ways to slice and dice it yeah I do it when I wake up but you know in in the first hour or something what are three things well maybe maybe I’ll try it in the day before actually do you um do you do you like is there anything else that you do to get yourself in the mind frame of like showing up and doing these multiple businesses um I’ve so I’m a web developer by trade so we’re a program computer program I guess since you know 94 95 so it’s been it’s been a long time so I think in systems I’m a systems thinker I think in uh logic and I think pragmatically so not everyone’s wired the same way there’s loads of things that I’m not good at because of this but there’s lots of things I’m good at the one of the one of the things I’m uh I have the ability to do is go into tunnel vision um I can when I’m programming with something I’m really passionate about I can try can just have real laser focus um sometimes I’m ADHD as well but when it’s computers or something systems based I really go into the zone and you know that’s why I was a 10 times developer it’s called when I used to be a developer um everyone used to tell me I was a 10 times developer so you could develop 10 times more code that’s because I went in the I went in the zone I went into and it’s before flow state yeah but it was before it before it was a thing really it just happened naturally for me. I don’t know uh my in the Myprotein days that’s why I’ll just used to go into flow state yeah obviously I wouldn’t be able to have do everything in a day without doing that. How you uh how are you liking clawed code? Claude code is amazing yeah it’s incredible isn’t it it’s it’s incredible yeah it’s really is it’s I prefer I prefer uh open um I prefer uh codex to be honest do you interest yeah so I’ve got I’m I’m doing a lot I’m doing a I’m working on like a little side project a bit of a an autonomous agent that automates a lot of tasks for me and my family office so reviewing emails and to-do lists and everything so kind of like your internal open claw basically it’s like that yeah it is yeah it’s is it’s similar to the open claw um which is which is pretty I’ve I’m running open claw at the moment but it’s it’s it’s full of bugs at the moment a little bit it is it and also the token burden on it is it’s heavy it’s very heavy this is a lot more simple this is just a cron job running tasks to check in box and then look at it interesting yeah yeah because I like you have to and I feel I’ve got to have it on O plus four plus six it’s just like there’s it’s the best it’s expensive though yeah it is it literally my it does my daily briefing cost me like nine nine dollars a day.

[47:56] Sammie: Really yeah it’s quite an in-depth briefing I get it to like search the news find all of these things bring me does 10 tweets two LinkedIn brief I think these ways of doing it I think you know this this clawed co-work looks like an interesting I’m obsessed with it.

[48:10] Oliver: Yeah I’ve not I’ve not used cowork yet but that looks like it’s got uh recurring tasks cron jobs essentially to do so you probably could do it via there now for a while they’ve just added schedule um so that’s what’s basically like to take on open claw I saw the I saw they did remote as well which is like you know the stuff on Telegram yeah yeah very cool so I think that’s just going straight for the clo open claw juggler isn’t it yeah for sure um after the after they got them uh the trademark issue I’ve been literally like down a rabbit hole I’m obsessed with all of this stuff yeah I it for me it’s it’s we’re living in this age now where I think we’ve got 18 months of what it’s like now ish.

[48:50] Sammie: I agree maybe even less yeah and so but these tools exist now and is is 0.03% of people pay for AI. Oh yeah 8.1 billion people and only 30% and 30% of the world has used it and only 0.03% is that thing it feels like a lot more doesn’t it but I guess we’re in our own little we in a bubble yeah and most people are like make this email sound better for me and they don’t understand the power of it. And so I feel like you’ve got a first mover advantage.

[49:24] Oliver: Absolutely I know we’re this is the time for sure you know and and look at Jack Dorsey don’t you see the news where he just laid off 4,000 people AI first that’s look that if that’s not a warning sign to people um the governments you know that that level of you know we need to get things in shape because you know you can’t 4,000 people being laid off is is it’s it’s gonna make issues if it’s starts going through this industry, which it will how do you prepare for that for your own businesses and do you are you thinking about that well luckily my businesses my current businesses are quite small so we can be agile and change the way we work we are already AI first so we’re using a lot of AI workflows in verve already Zenor is obviously an AI first um business uh we use portfolio developers who use um um what’s the uh I’ve forgotten the name of it now uh Copilot or we’ve forgot the the development tool cursor cursor um so so yeah but if it if it was a big business with hundreds of staff or thousands of staff and you’ve got to shoehorn that back in it’d be a difficult task it’s gonna kill morale it’s it’s it’s a it’s a bit of an issue what’s a big issue it’s crazy like the anthropic CEO was out there yesterday saying 50% of basically like entry and mid-level jobs by uh 18 months max and that’s and it’s not scaremongering it’s it’s it’s it’s Jack Dorsey’s what he did yesterday has just proven the point you know anything like law or accountancy and all these things are just it’s gonna it’s gonna disappear isn’t it so if someone’s here now like and thinking that might be me what could they do in your eyes that could help them I I I think look the only way to do to do do it is embrace it. So I think you’ve got to look at how you’re gonna you leverage AI to to to make your job better. There’s still things that I you know it does need a check and a balance um so I think you’ve just got to if you’re gonna sit in your if you’re gonna dig dig your heels and go no I’m this is AI is not going to work you’re gonna you’re gonna lose your job unfortunately if you then present yourself and use AI first to make your job better and more efficient then it’s gonna whether you’ve got your own business it’s gonna make you you stand above the crowd and if you’re in a business that’s going to restructure the the managers are going to look for the people that use AI to do it to do the job better really it it’s it’s become a key part of I mean speak to Claude more than I speak to my wife it’s like yeah it’s mad. Has he got a name? Stella’s girlfriend Land had to be done yeah can you imagine?

[51:55] Sammie: What are you calling that um last one then so you obviously you you you grew up with nothing and and you’ve built something absolutely incredible you you you you you’ve lost trust in people you’ve come back you you you’re still going uh if you could tell yourself one big takeaway like what’s the 16 year old Oliver need to know today like it’s a good question I I I always I I guess the I think resourcefulness over resources is is something that I strongly believe in.

[52:28] Oliver: Maybe I’m biased but I guess also I guess uh keep control and that doesn’t I don’t sound like a baglomaniac or anything like that. It’s just so important to stay focused on control whether that’s control of yourself whether that’s control of the equity the share cap table whether it’s control of just everything because then you only have yourself and when you start bringing other people into it starts to dilute decision making slows things down adds friction. In my experience it doesn’t uh it doesn’t converse into a good it doesn’t translate into a good um outcome when you say resources over resourcefulness so resourcefulness over resources. Okay cool cool right so you go out and find the resources so but you you I guess what it means is be be resourceful yourself so don’t just go and get a uh you know a a series A funding round day one and then then just spend loads of cash. I think the right mindset for me anyway the right mind obviously there’s there’s certain situations that’s the right thing to do but for me try and do it yourself first being resourceful rather than just running to get because I think that’s a bit of a validation point it’s been hiding obviously there’s a point when when you can add the nitro in of a big round and really fire up.

[53:42] Sammie: But I don’t think you need that early no well that’s exactly what we did with Gaines App. So we took 250 SEIS we could have gone and got the million we didn’t and we are gonna go with that because we can get live and we can almost get to profitability with that too in fact we can and it’s like do we even need to then go again probably not so that’s the point.

[54:06] Oliver: Yeah your dilution if you went for a million would be way too much and I know I 10 years from now I think it’d be one of those why did I do that you know it’s uh so yeah for sure you know seed capital get the get the thing running get it profitable and then you when you go and knock on the investors’ doors then they’ll probably knock on your door then that’s exactly that’s why I’m a different proof of point you’re in a different um negotiation stance and and then you’re obviously the the the EV the enterprise value of the business is going to be much higher so it’s that’s that’s the right way to do it for me.

[54:36] Sammie: That’s the that’s the plan. Because when we started out we were like yeah let’s go get a million quid and just scale this thing and then when we really look deeper at it was like well no we we’re better off just getting a bit of capital, bootstrapping it basically we’re poorer and poorer and poorer until we’re not and then we can reinvest the profits back in and scale it faster.

[54:52] Oliver: I think that’s the framework for me for anyone starting out that’s that’s the you know once you’ve validated an MVP uh minimum viable product sorry for all the analogies the um then you know in in your spare time on the weekend so we started with then that’s that’s when you go maybe get you get your seed capital.

[55:09] Sammie: Nice. Mate this has been class uh like a full masterclass for people and it’s just so interesting like you you’re you’re you’re an incredible guy um absolute hats off to you for everything you’ve done um we will leave links to the book and and the products in the show notes below I really appreciate that it’s been is there anything anywhere else you want to send people no no please uh I just um I’ve I’ve really enjoyed this and hopefully it helps some people you know and inspires them and gives them that maybe half a percent just to to go and do it.

[55:38] Oliver: Yeah you’re alleged thanks mate thanks mate