If someone handed you £10,000 today and made you choose between the FTSE 100 and the S&P 500, which would you pick? Professional trader Michael Taylor’s answer was neither, and his reasoning is the whole episode.
Michael Taylor runs Shifting Shares, trades UK stocks full time, and has built a following by calling out overhyped companies before they fall apart. I wanted to get him on the Money Gains Podcast to settle a question I get in my DMs constantly: should you be backing the US or the UK right now?
We started with that simple £10k thought experiment, then went deep on index concentration, the Magnificent Seven, why the London Stock Exchange keeps losing companies, and what all of this means for someone quietly investing £200 a month into an ISA.
Michael doesn’t sugarcoat it. Some of what he says about the S&P 500’s concentration risk, and about the state of UK small businesses, is genuinely uncomfortable. But it’s the kind of conversation that helps you actually think about where your money sits, rather than just following whatever’s trending.
In this episode we welcome professional trader and no-nonsense finance content creator Michael Taylor from Shifting Shares.
We talked about what’s going on in the markets recently and whether the US is going to keep being the dominant heavyweight.
Michael on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/shiftingshares/
Michael on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCG4DcZXrpIKwmgdXNU1iUgQ
Why UK stocks might offer better growth opportunities than you think
Lump sum vs. monthly investing: when the statistically better choice isn’t always the right one for your peace of mind
What companies leaving the London Stock Exchange means for the UK economy
How tax policies and NI increases are creating real challenges for small businesses
The importance of long-term investing over cash savings
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Key takeaways
- Michael wouldn’t choose the FTSE 100 or the S&P 500 outright, he’d pick a global tracker like the FTSE All World instead.
- The S&P 500 is roughly a third weighted to the Magnificent Seven, so it’s less diversified than it looks despite being an index fund.
- UK-listed 10-baggers (stocks that grow tenfold) outperform globally according to Schroders research, even though the FTSE 100 index itself has lagged.
- The London Stock Exchange lost 88 companies from the main market last year, with a further 45 taken private, and IPOs aren’t replacing them.
- Statistically, lump sum investing beats drip-feeding your money in about 67% of the time, but Michael says your emotional tolerance for a crash matters just as much as the maths.
Timestamps
- [00:46] The FTSE 100 vs S&P 500 Thought Experiment
- [02:32] Tool: Why Michael Would Choose FTSE All World Instead
- [03:44] UK 10-Baggers and London’s Hidden Winners
- [08:13] Lump Sum vs Pound Cost Averaging
- [11:09] Trading Psychology and Learning to Cut Losses
- [13:50] Is the S&P 500 Overvalued? Goldman Sachs Predictions
- [20:15] Why Companies Are Leaving the London Stock Exchange
- [42:42] The Cash ISA vs Stocks and Shares ISA Debate
- [47:30] FTSE All World Risk Over 15 and 20 Year Periods
- [49:21] Lifetime ISA: The 25% Government Top-Up Explained
The £10,000 question: FTSE 100 or S&P 500?
I opened with a simple scenario: £10,000, invest it today, choose between the FTSE 100 or the S&P 500. Michael’s answer was neither.
His reasoning on the S&P 500 was blunt: “one-third of that is the Magnificent 7. It drove over half of the gains last year.” That concentration means the index looks diversified on paper but behaves more like a handful of mega-cap tech bets in practice, especially with what he called “extra political risk” and tariffs under Trump adding another layer of uncertainty.
On the FTSE 100, his complaint was different: it’s full of “old economy companies” like HSBC, Vodafone and Shell, and slow growth. If he wasn’t managing his own money, he told me he’d go with the FTSE All World tracker instead, since it still carries roughly 70% US exposure but spreads the rest across other markets. If you want a primer on how these funds actually work before picking one, our guide to investing in index funds covers the basics.
US stocks or UK stocks: where does Michael actually put his money?
When I pushed him to choose a country rather than an index, Michael was upfront about his bias: “I trade UK stocks. I only trade UK stocks. That’s where my edge is.” He knows the businesses, speaks to management teams, and understands the market’s quirks.
But he was equally clear that as a pure index bet, “S&P 500 is a way better index than FTSE 100.” The nuance he kept returning to is that picking individual UK stocks and buying the UK index tracker are two very different propositions. According to Schroders research he referenced, UK-listed 10-baggers (stocks that grow tenfold from your entry price) have historically outperformed globally, even while the headline FTSE 100 index has struggled. Games Workshop was his example of a stock nobody expected to become a huge winner.
He was far less charitable about others. On ASOS specifically, he said: “I think it’s got two, well, it’s got 18 months now, because six months ago it refinanced into junk bond territory.” If you’re weighing up whether to chase individual UK winners like that yourself, it’s worth reading how the process actually works first in our guide on how to pick stocks, because Michael was equally clear that most people are better off in a tracker than trying to stock pick.
Lump sum vs drip-feeding your money in
We get this question constantly: if you come into £10,000 or £50,000, do you invest it all at once or spread it monthly? Michael’s answer split the maths from the emotion.
“Statistically, lump sum is better 67% of the time,” he said, because markets tend to go up over time. But he flagged the real risk: if you lump sum in and the market drops 50% the following month, as happened in the 2007 financial crisis, and you panic and pull out, the statistics stop mattering. “If you do your dough and then pull it out, and then you avoid the market forever, it doesn’t really matter if it’s statistically better because you’re not going to be in it and you’re not going to profit.”
His conclusion was that there’s no universal right answer, it depends on whether you can emotionally sit through a drop without bailing out. If you’re setting up regular monthly contributions, our best investing apps in the UK roundup covers which platforms make automated drip-feeding straightforward.
Is the S&P 500 too concentrated to trust?
Given the recent chatter about the S&P 500 being overheated, I asked Michael what he made of predictions from Goldman Sachs and other big banks suggesting lower growth ahead than the 8 to 10% investors have come to expect.
“I genuinely have no idea,” he said, pointing out that even the biggest banks failed to predict how markets would react to Trump’s tariffs, despite him openly campaigning on them. His view is that “US dominance is probably gonna fade” eventually, but he was honest that nobody, including the analysts with “big brains, big computers, big bank rolls,” can reliably call the S&P 500’s next move.
What he does think is worth acting on is the concentration risk itself. Even if the US doesn’t fade, a global tracker like the FTSE All World would simply reallocate into whatever grows next, the same way relegated football clubs get replaced. That diversification argument is the core reason he leans towards a world tracker over betting everything on one country’s index. If you’re deciding where that sits relative to a pension, our SIPP vs ISA comparison is a useful next read.
Why companies keep leaving the London Stock Exchange
This is where Michael got most animated. He described a genuine exodus: 88 companies left the main market last year, a further 45 were taken over by private equity because they were undervalued, and only 18 IPOs arrived to replace them. The AIM market, he said, “has the lowest amount of companies since 2001.”
His diagnosis was a mix of culture and tax. “The UK doesn’t have an investing culture. Everyone’s got the money in cash ISAs… but it’s not gonna build wealth.” Only around 5% of eligible people hold a stocks and shares ISA, which he called “crazy.” He also pointed to stamp duty on UK share purchases (0.5% on the main market) as an obvious barrier: “we’re trying to get people to invest, just remove the tax.”
He was matter of fact about where this leads if nothing changes: “unless it’s reversed in 10 years, the London Stock Exchange is finished, like as a global financial centre.” Strong words from someone who trades that market for a living. For readers weighing up cash savings against investing given this backdrop, our cash ISA vs stocks and shares ISA breakdown lays out the tradeoffs Michael was gesturing at.
The maths on long-term risk, and the lifetime ISA top-up
We closed on numbers that stuck with me. Over any 15-year period, the FTSE All World has around a 2.5% chance of losing money; over 20 years, that drops to roughly 1%, even lower than the equivalent figure for the S&P 500 alone. As Michael put it, the message is to “nail your hands to the table and keep adding to it.”
He was also emphatic about the Lifetime ISA, where the government tops up your contribution by 25%: “Like Warren Buffett doesn’t even get 25%, and you’re getting it guaranteed.” Combine that top-up with an average 8 to 10% investment return and you’re looking at a 33 to 35% annualised return in the year of contribution alone, well above what even Warren Buffett or Peter Lynch achieved over their careers. If you want to sanity check what compounding contributions like that actually add up to over time, our compound interest calculator is worth running the numbers through, and our investing checklist is a good starting point before you commit any lump sum.
This transcript is auto-generated and lightly edited for readability, it may contain errors.
[00:00] Sammie Ellard-King:
Welcome back to the Money Gains Podcast. Should you be investing into the UK right now? That’s what we’re going to find out with professional trader Michael Taylor from Shifting Shares. Michael, how are you doing, man?
SPEAKER_01: Pretty good, thanks, Sammie. How are you?
SPEAKER_00: I am very well. The context we know each other a little bit, haven’t we?
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: Been bumping into each other on social media quite a lot recently.
SPEAKER_01: Well, to be fair, it was actually you who inspired me to get started. Um, because I saw your masterclass and I watched that and I thought, I haven’t really got anything to lose. So started posting TikToks and then I found repurpose, uh, which I’m quite lucky because I wouldn’t have bothered to post on Instagram if it hadn’t been for a purpose. So there’s all these like crazy little hacks and tricks you can learn, right? That just powers everything up.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, mate, you’re doing a great job.
[00:46] Michael Taylor:
Oh, thank you.
SPEAKER_00: Doing a really, really good job. But I want to start super simple for the audience today, and um it’s a question really around it just a bit of fun. So if you had £10,000 and you could choose where you had to invest it, but you had to invest it today, and you have two choices the FTSE 100 or the S&P 500.
SPEAKER_01: Neither. Ooh. Because if you think you’ve if you have the FTSE 100, you were investing in dollar earners, they’re quite slow growth companies. I mean, we’ve got HSBC, Vodafone, Shell, sort of old economy companies, and then the S&P 500, one-third of that is the Magnificent 7. It drove over half of the gains last year. So, yes, it looks like an ETF and it looks diversified, but actually it’s really concentrated. So now with Trump, you’ve got extra political risk, you’ve got tariffs. I just think it’s quite a heavy bet. Now, historically, that’s been great. In the last 10 years, S&P 500 has done fantastically well. There’s a reason it’s 70% of global ETFs, pretty much because it’s so dominant. But if I was not to manage my own money, I would go with FTSE All World. And yes, that’s still going to be 70% of US is still going to be 70%, but you’ve got extra diversification. And then if the US does underperform, then at least you’ve still got exposure elsewhere. Now you could do FTSE All World excluding US, but then you were taking a view that and the whole point of doing ETFs is to be passive, right? So yeah, I personally would do FTSE All World if I didn’t manage my own money.
[02:32] Sammie Ellard-King:
That wasn’t a selection. Yeah, FTSE 100 or S&P 500. Where are you going? Could you neither? You’d keep it in cash.
SPEAKER_01: I would do neither, yeah. Really? Um, because well, I think S&P 500 is better than the FTSE 100, just because you got tech and everything. Yeah, yeah. But I I would choose neither. Yeah, I wouldn’t do I wouldn’t do one or the other. I would do a selection of of all of them.
SPEAKER_00: So if I rephrase that question slightly then and I say US or UK, where would you go then? Because you’re a trader, that means it opens the floor up to multitude of different investments.
SPEAKER_01: So so I trade UK stocks. I only trade UK stocks. Uh that’s where my edge is. I know the market pretty well. I know the infrastructure. I know a lot of the businesses, speak to management teams regularly. So for me, I would always be UK biased, but again, I’m a trader. That said, uh, 10 baggers outperform in the UK, according to Schroders’ research. So if you can actually find really good companies and you back yourself, you can do really well. And the odds of success are actually higher in the UK. But if if you’re talking just indices, S&P 500 is a way better index than FTSE 100.
[03:44] Sammie Ellard-King:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. They’re slow old companies in the FTSE, aren’t they?
SPEAKER_01: Yeah. When you say 10 bagger, what do you mean when you say Yeah, so a stock that goes up 10 times from its original investment price? Oh, nice. Um, so there’s been some fantastic winners in the London Stock Exchange. Uh Games Workshop is one that you wouldn’t otherwise think, but that has been a fantastic performer. Uh JD Sports, Domino’s, ASOS, definitely not a stock I would buy now. No.
SPEAKER_00: Um I saw your video on that.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I think that’s going to go bust. Um really?
SPEAKER_00: ASOS going bust.
SPEAKER_01: I I think it’s got two, well, it’s got 18 months now, because six months ago it refinanced into junk bond territory, free to a load of capital to reinvest. But it’s yeah, I just can’t see that business model working. You’ve got Shein, which doesn’t have the same you know, style and ethics as UK businesses. They can just fill it cheap, they avoid the import duty. Uh, there’s import VAT as well, I think they can get around. Uh, so it is just a way cheaper business model, and I don’t think ASOS can compete. And PrettyLittleThing have tried to rebrand it’s the same old stuff, just with a makeover. I don’t see that working. Um, but yeah, in terms of the UK, there are some fantastic stocks, but there’s also a lot of dogs.
[05:06] Sammie Ellard-King:
Yeah, there is, there is a lot. So ASOS, then you reckon 18 months and it could be gone, or then it’s it will need refinancing, I think.
SPEAKER_01: Now there’s always people who are willing to refinance. I mean, it TGI Fridays went bust, someone bought it out. I don’t know why you would ever buy that business out because it looks the same as it did 20 years ago. It’s microwave slop, it’s awful. Um, but you know, people will buy anything if they think they can make a bit of money. Uh, and maybe they can, good luck to them. But yeah, that I thought that would be gone.
SPEAKER_00: I had my first date in TGI Fridays. I think I was 13. Well, clearly not because we’re not together anymore, but I think we lasted two weeks. Um probably because it’s a good chance. Yeah, but I yeah, it is weird about TGIs because like back in the day it was a thing though, like you would go there, like your family would go there. Yeah, yeah. Like you’d go to the cinema and it’s always next to the cinema. So you’d like go and have like a pre-hot dog there or a burger, and then you’d go to the cinema and fill up on sugar basically. Um, but yeah, no, it’s definitely gone downhill, it’s deserted.
[06:18] Michael Taylor:
Well, I’m I’m from Hartlepool, we didn’t have TGIs, it was too classy, so uh yeah. That’s what I don’t remember.
SPEAKER_00: I love that, but I wanted to sort of go back to the indices conversation because we both get a question a lot in our DMs, and I saw you post a story about it, and I think it was a really good uh kind of conversational point for today. Was let’s say, for example, you are investing into funds right now, yeah, and um, or you’re thinking of investing into funds, and I get this question like, I’ve just come into some money, I’ve got 10 grand, or I’ve got 50 grand. What do I do? Do I lump some or do I dollar cost average? So putting the money in each month.
SPEAKER_01: Right. Well, the answer to that depends on do you want statistically better or do you want what’s better emotionally? Because statistically, lump sum is better 67% of the time. There’s been research. 67. Yeah. Um, obviously, you can tweak the data to manipulate it, but in general, that’s because markets go up over time. So if you put a lump sum in and markets generally go up, it’s going to be better. Now, you could put you know a lump sum in today, market collapses in a month, 50%, which which it has done, 2007 GFC, things things take a bath. If you do your dough and then pull it out, and then you avoid the market forever, it doesn’t really matter if it’s statistically better because you’re not going to be in it and you’re not going to profit. So if you can’t really accept that, and the thing is with volatility, everyone likes it when things are going up. It’s when it’s going down that they don’t like it. So if you think it might be better to just work your way in, then do that. And yes, statistically, it might not be as good, but it might be better for you. Yeah. So there’s no one size fits all question. Uh, it’s really down to your emotions, I guess.
[08:13] Sammie Ellard-King:
Totally, man. Like, we had it even uh like the correction, recent correction, and a lot of people messaging me like, Oh, I came in some money and I put it in, and like I’ve lost, I’m down two grand now, and like I’m freaking out, what do I do? Yeah, and I was like, you know, you’re just gonna have to well you wait it out because that’s what you were gonna do anyway. Yeah, you know, so like you know, if it was going up, you weren’t gonna touch it. So it’s just the it’s just the inverse of that now.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, pretty much.
unknown: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: And I always say to people, like, if that is you, like if you’ve never invested before, and you’re starting with that, and that is your first thing you do, that is a bad idea. Just because you don’t know about yourself until you go through that moment, right? Like, and you see that 10%, 20% drop, and then suddenly you’re like, I’m finding out a lot about myself. Because for me, the first time it happened to me, I was a gut wrench.
[09:05] Michael Taylor:
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: Now I’m like, woo, but like this is a there’s a different because I’ve been through it. So if you never experienced it, you don’t know that about yourself, right?
SPEAKER_01: Yeah. That’s it. Everyone, when they start trading, they love volatility and they’re happy to pile in. And then when you lose a big chunk of money, you either learn or you burn out and you don’t come back. Um, but you have to go through that process because it’s okay for me to say I’ll cut your losses. And everyone knows you need to cut your losses in trading. It obviously is different from vesting, you’re probably gonna average down in investing, it’s two completely different things. Um, but you can say cut your losses. Everyone listens and then they never do, and then you find out, uh, and that’s that’s when you learn to cut your losses.
SPEAKER_00: Oh mate, it’s so funny you said that because like I there’s a hundred times that I’m like, okay, this is what I’m gonna do, this is what I’m gonna do, and then you get in you get into it first off, and you like start picking loads of things, you’re like, yeah, and they all go up, and you’re like, I’m Warren Buffett, reincarnated, and then you’re like, no, a big slap rile in chops, and you’re like, okay, yeah, I like I realise I’m not now, and I probably need to actually uh rethink what I’m doing. Um, and that’s when you find out really, because you you can do every survey, every risk assessment in the world, and it will tell you your like you you like high risk or you like low risk, and until you go through it, you have no idea.
[11:09] Michael Taylor:
Yeah, yeah. I mean that happened to me. Um, so I I got started, so I went full-time in 2016. Uh, it was a bull market, so it was very easy to make money. So again, I thought I was a good trader. I wasn’t, the market was going up, so all you had to do was be long. It was basically like 2020, 2021. If you bought stocks, you made money.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: Um, sadly, it’s not like that now. Um, but then we had the general election in 2017, and liquidity just evaporated, and a lot of things I couldn’t really sell without moving the price, and so therefore I just chose not to sell. Other people sold, and I was just watching the money go down. And honestly, it was so stressful, like it affected my sleep, like my chest and my shoulders were really heavy. I started having arguments with my wife um just because I was in such a foul mood. Um, and then when the closing bell would go, I’d I’d feel like relief because I wasn’t going to lose money until like 8 a.m. the next day. Um, but yeah, those those experiences you sort of realise um is it is it worth continuing? And eventually I just liquidated everything. Did you? Um, it was like just awful losses. But I was I was still up from where I started. Yeah, yeah. So that was the realization that I thought, well, if you actually learn how to do this properly, then you can continue to do it. Um, but as I say, I was I was tremendously lucky because it was a bull market when I got started.
[12:36] Sammie Ellard-King:
And you’re like, that’s the psychology of a trader where it’s like happening over a matter of days for you to write. And I mean, it’s still the same, obviously, if you’re like holding a fund, but yeah, it’s like this is you’re on watching like shorter terms.
SPEAKER_01: So these were sort of longer term swing trade positions, but I was watching them go down like minute by minute, yeah.
SPEAKER_00: And every trade is different. So what does a long-term swing trade feel like for you?
SPEAKER_01: So like weeks or months. Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_00: Short term, very short term. Yeah, I guess so, yeah.
SPEAKER_01: I mean, some of my trades last seconds, so really, yeah.
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that’s amazing, man. I I don’t have the balls. Fair play to you.
SPEAKER_01: Um, it’s I always say intraday trading is like the hardest money you’ll ever make. Um, and I don’t really mind saying I’m just not that good at it. Um, I can do okay, but the easiest way to make money in trading is have a longer time time frame, you know, weeks or months. Um, because then if you can get on board a trend, you can just ride that trend up and you don’t need to be watching the screen all day. Um, so it’s a much higher strike rate, it’s less stressful, and you’ve got a higher chance of success. Um, but yeah, I think trading, most people shouldn’t do it. Uh, you’re better off just just buying ETFs, in my opinion. 100%.
[13:50] Sammie Ellard-King:
Uh on that subject, we had a good friend of yours, Rich, on the show. Yeah, um he had some interesting things to say about the American market, specifically the S&P 500, and he referenced Goldman Sachs’s predictions. And since then, quite a few big investors have also come out and said it’s so inflated that it’s really quite impossible to have that levels of growth that we’ve been seeing, that we’ve been used to, so that eight to ten percent that you kind of benchmark everybody talks about it.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: Um what’s your opinion on this kind of lower target from some of the biggest people out there in Goldman Sachs, etc., as well?
SPEAKER_01: Hard to say because like I don’t have a crystal ball, so I don’t really know what’s gonna happen. And everyone was surprised by Trump when he started putting in tariffs, even though before he was elected he said he was gonna put in tariffs, and he calls himself the tariff man, and yet the markets went down. So is you know, if people can’t even predict that, how can they predict what’s gonna happen in 10 years? I mean, it’s just impossible, right? Um, yeah, yeah. So I I I genuinely have no idea. Uh I think US dominance is probably gonna fade. Um, but I I don’t really know. And I don’t the beauty of being a trader is I don’t really need to know because I just follow charts and do what the price action tells me. Um, but I do think there is a danger because of what we talked about earlier, with the high concentration in tech and in the magnificent seven, that it’s just better to do FTSE All World. And and of course, that’s my opinion, it’s not advice, but as I say, personally, that’s what I would do. I think it’s incredibly difficult to predict what’s going to happen in six months, never mind 10 years.
[15:40] Sammie Ellard-King:
100%. Yeah. I mean, it’s it’s very difficult. And as you know, a lot of people have a lot of money in the S&P 500, and that’s like their entire strategy is just dollar cost average into the S&P 500. And so when they see news like that, especially beginners, and there’s a lot of people talking about it, it does scare them, right?
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: And you think it should?
SPEAKER_01: Well, it sort of uh potentially is scary, but also the reason the S&P is so big is because it’s been so good. So again, it’s do you want to take a view against it or do you just want to roll with it? Um, because as I said, even if the US fades away, that FTSE All World is going to reallocate into other growing sectors. So it’s like the FTSE 100, FTSE 250, you get it’s like in uh the premiership and championship, some get relegated, some get promoted. Um, so even if you know a company goes bust in the FTSE 100, yes, it’s not ideal, but it’s also you know might be a tiny percentage of the FTSE 100, yeah, and something else will move up in its place. Yeah, that’s probably so it is it is still diversified, but yeah, because of that high concentration, not as diversified as much.
[16:48] Sammie Ellard-King:
So I’ll tell you something. When it my nan said to me, and my mum actually as well, we’re like, What’s this Bitcoin thing? Should I buy it? Right. That scared the life out of me. Yeah. And I was like, oh no, that we’re at the top, you know, we are at the top. Do you feel like it’s that same moment for the S&P 500? Do you think?
SPEAKER_01: I have no idea. Um I don’t really think the thing is there are so many factors influencing the S&P 500 that I wouldn’t even know how to build a model to calculate that. And if Goldman Sachs, you look at all the banks’ predictions in a year of what the S&P 500 will be, none of them ever get it right. No, they don’t know. And these these guys, you know, have big brains, big computers, big bank rolls, you know, far better than me in the bedroom. Yeah.
[17:38] Sammie Ellard-King:
Um thousands of analysts.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00: And they still get it wrong.
SPEAKER_01: So who knows? Exactly.
SPEAKER_00: That’s why I think diversification in that is key. If you are like massively overexposed, even to any country, yeah, your risk levels are a lot higher. And so the FTSE all world does provide you that diversification, yeah. And then that ability, so should the UK or France or whatever country massively overperforms, it’s then reflected against the market, right? And yeah, it’s like owning the world’s economy. So if the US does fade, obviously it’s not going to be ideal because some of the biggest businesses in the world are in there. Yeah. But if India or the UK, fingers crossed, um would be good. It would be good. Yeah, it would be great. But you know, if they do, then it it will be reflected in that. And that uh that’s why I think it’s uh it’s you know important. That’s why it’s such a large part of my own portfolio because yeah, I don’t want to play that game as much. Like um, so yeah, it was interesting. I I wanted to hear your thoughts around that type of topic. But um coming to the UK, um we’ve had you know some recent trends happening within the London Stock Exchange itself, and it’s been quite an alarming amount of exodus of companies leaving the London Stock Exchange. Um now I want to know from you like what’s happening here in the context, and you know, what should be we we be aware of as investors?
[20:15] Michael Taylor:
It’s difficult to pinpoint how to fix it because at the moment we’ve got companies leaving, and you know, Shell were talking about moving to where they would get a better valuation on the shares elsewhere. Um so on the main market, I think 88 left uh last year. A further 45 were taken over by private equity just because they’re too cheap. Um, and we had 18 IPOs, and that that is going to continue unless something is done. And that that doesn’t even talk about the AIM market, which has the lowest amount of companies since 2001. It was only founded in 95. Um, and it’s just been a slow dwindle. We we did have a lot of cash outs, you know, private equity cash outs in the COVID boom. So things like Dr. Martens, Permira took out a good chunk of that, uh made a lot of money, and that’s down like crazy amounts. I think it’s like 90% down or something, which is insane. A lot of them joined the 90% club. Uh, some of them have even gone bust. I mean, I remember one called Parsley Box. My broker showed me the deck, and I thought, there is no way people are investing in this, like this is a slam dunk short.
[21:25] Sammie Ellard-King:
It’s just parsley box.
SPEAKER_01: Uh so it did like meal prep for OAPs, it makes sense. But OAPs just looked bland and disgusting and overpriced. Yeah. And I thought, there’s no way that anyone could be could be backing this. It was like a ridiculous valuation. And I was thinking, I need to short this. But then because actual institutions were putting money in, I sort of scared myself out with the trade. So I I did nothing, and I think within a year it had gone. Um so yeah. So we had a lot of floats during COVID, which was abnormal, you know, things like ProCook, which I did short uh because that was just an obvious cash out from the founders. They got inflated numbers from the pandemic selling fancy kitchenware, yeah. Floated it, took a low down, and then it collapsed because we had the cost of living crisis. People aren’t buying fancy kitchen anywhere, and uh kitchenware anymore. Um, but to fix it, the UK had doesn’t have an investing culture. Everyone’s got the money in cash ISAs, you know, which is great if you want to save, but it’s not gonna build wealth. And stocks and shares ISAs are pretty much the only reason I live in the UK that and spread betting, which wouldn’t advise people to try. It’s more of a trading instrument. But stocks and shares ISAs, you can grow your money tax free, which is insane. And people just don’t really use them. Yeah, it’s five percent five percent of eligible people have one. And that that is crazy. It’s nuts, isn’t it? Yeah, but to fix it, I think what we need is to to instill an investing culture. Like you don’t get taught about this in school at all, like investing and how shares work, things like that. Um, you know, even interest rates, I think they’re covered briefly, but they don’t really have an application in the real world.
[23:15] Sammie Ellard-King:
Um I don’t remember having learning that.
SPEAKER_01: You know, what sticks out in my head is Pythagoras’ theorem and the radi of circles and all that pointless stuff that you never use. Yeah. Yeah, like nothing, nothing real world. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I think I think that needs to change. We need to see less regulation and tape on the London London stock exchange simply because it’s not attractive for companies to list here. Like they’re going elsewhere. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: Um, it’s even moving, aren’t they? Like if you look at ARM, Arm is basically our ma one of our magnificent seven companies. Clearly, if you look at it, it’s enormous business. Business Cambridgeshire found it, Cambridge University found it. Yeah. And it basically was here for a while and then went, Well, I can go somewhere else and get women.
[24:02] Michael Taylor:
SoftBank took it out, didn’t they? And then pre-floated it there. But the the valuations are better. And in the US, everyone has stocks. I mean, they’ve even got TV shows about it. Uh, whereas here, if if you invest in stocks, you sort of send people to sleep. Um, so so that needs to change. Um, lower regulation, I think. Uh, but also stamp duty, yes, like on the main market, you pay 0.5% in stamp duty. We’re trying to get people to invest, just remove the tax. Yeah. Um, because even if you’re only doing a few transactions a year, it does add up because you see the breakdown on the ticket. Um, so I think that should be gotten rid of.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, we’re seeing cash outflows pretty much every month from from UK companies. Um unless it’s reversed in 10 years, the London Stock Exchange is finished, like as a global financial centre. I I just don’t see how it can survive.
[25:01] Sammie Ellard-King:
Um the London Stock Exchange will be finished, do you think?
SPEAKER_01: Well, as a global financial centre, it’ll probably still be around. Yeah, but it’s a one-way street, and unless something’s done, it’s gonna continue.
SPEAKER_00: And what’s caused this environment? I mean, like, why is it it’s so bad? I mean, it never used to be like that. It used to be an really attractive the center of finance, like yeah, I I don’t really know.
SPEAKER_01: Um, and it’s a bit of a worry because you know, I’m now things uh leaving. There’s a lot of undervalued stocks, they’re getting taken out by private equity. So there is a sweet spot if you can find something with an uptrend, not only are you drop joining the uptrend, but you potentially get a revaluation. But eventually those are going to get taken out or they’re gonna become fully valued. There’s companies leaving, there’s not as many companies joining. Like I could be out of a job at some point, or I have to, you know, trade US stocks or something. Yeah. So yeah, longer term, it’s a worry. And I think it’s also a worry for for everyone because we need a good stock market. Uh, we need entrepreneurs. You know, we we were once called the uh nation of shopkeepers. Um small businesses just get hammered here, and I think it needs to change.
[26:16] Sammie Ellard-King:
Completely, mate. Like, completely. I think like there’s such a correlation between British businesses doing well and the economy flying. We’re seeing minute GDP growth that was cut you know on Wednesday’s uh very recent budget, yeah, forecasting that. Get bit British business moving and fix the London Stock Exchange, fix it for young entrepreneurs to actually want to aspire to be a publicly listed company on the London Stock Exchange, and you get your economy moving. It seems so simple to say, but it it for me it makes a lot more sense just to be simple about those things.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah. Well, if you if you think about it right, in my business, um every pound that I would make over £50,000 is taxed at £58.59%. Now, as a services business, you’ve got to charge VAT, but because I don’t really have any outgoings, that’s like a tax. And yes, people say it’s paid by the customer, which it is, but it’s still a tax. And if someone doesn’t pay VAT, they can be cheaper than you because you’ve got to add on this tax to give to the government. So it’s not really paid by the customer. I know technically it is, but it’s still a tax. Then you’ve got corporation tax, then you’ve got dividend tax. Um, you’ve probably got other taxes. I’m not an accountant. Uh I’m sure plenty will tell me. But I worked it out, and yeah, if if as on that spreadsheet, after all taxes have been deducted, it’s 58.59%, and entrepreneurs take all the risk and everything. Um, so you can see why anyone with the service business is is moving to the UAE or you know, lower tax regulation businesses. Um, and I’m all for progressive tax. Um, but I think when you lower the risk of business owners, you make it easier for them. They they are going to take more risks because at the moment it’s probably easier just to become an employee, but not everyone can be employees because you need businesses to create jobs. Yeah. Um, so it’s like a two-way street, right? Not everyone should be an entrepreneur, uh, but people should have that option and it should be easier.
[28:37] Sammie Ellard-King:
Yeah, it should be much easier. Yeah. I think like for me, I get a 20% VAT, 90% corporation tax, depending on what level you’re at, you know, dividend tax 8.75%.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: So if I make £100, really business keeps £55, £55, 60% of it. Yeah. It’s not ideal, really, is it? Not really. Like, you know, it’s like great, you know, and then you know, then you have to pay the staff and then the and the team and everybody that comes with it, plus you then gotta like stay afloat. It’s nuts. Yeah. Um, it’s not easy running a small business in the UK. And I you know, if we didn’t have some of those thresholds for smaller, even lower thresholds, you know, like VAT support maybe but going up a little bit higher, yeah, or uh lower corporation tax for people with certain revenues, yeah. I would take more I would hire more people, which puts more tax back into the economy because we pay them.
[29:33] Michael Taylor:
Yeah. So it is it is nuts. And one one VAT example, right? Um, so I can’t I can’t say the person, but there are businesses who will deliberately stay under the VAT threshold and and actively turn away business or make sure that they don’t go above it because then it’s chargeable on the entire thing and they’ll be worse off. Like, how nuts is that? Yeah. It’s like the childcare tax trap, the you know, that the threshold, is it 65%? Yeah, or something like that. Yeah. Um, so we’ve got all these like weird things, there’s such easy wins to just fix. Um, I you know, I don’t know why it doesn’t happen.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it must be must be something else going on in the background. Uh but I think on that London Stock Exchange, where obviously we’ve touched on why it affects the consumer. Um but is there any other reasons why like the everyday person listening to this should be thinking about that as well and what can they watch out for in this?
[30:38] Michael Taylor:
Um well I think everyone should be mindful of where they spend their money, right? Because let’s say you go to Starbucks, uh, Starbucks pays five times more in tax to Starbucks and Mia in a low tax jurisdiction, which collects royalties on 42 countries in Europe, five times more tax to HMRC. So last year I think it paid five million, uh sorry, 7.2 million in tax on 149 million of gross profits. Now, obviously that’s gross profits, but it’s a 5% gross profit tax rate. Now, the independent coffee shop owner will have pay higher tax in proportion to that. Corp tax, yeah. Yeah. So you go to Starbucks, that money’s funneled out of the country and it goes to Seattle, the holding company in the US. So it comes down to it. Do you want your money to stay in the UK? Um, because you go to an independent, that money is probably going on family, it might stay in the local economy. You know, it’s paying for actual things and gets recirculated rather than funneled to shareholders and Starbucks in the US. So you can make a decision. Um, and yeah, everyone’s guilty of going to chains, you know. I like Nando’s, uh, it’s good fun, but that gets funneled out of the country as well. Um, so everyday people, you know, if you want to have a vibrant economy, you’ve got to start by backing smaller businesses. And the UK government, which has been, you know, I think UK’s small business has been filled by several governments, um, and that needs to change. So I think people should care because things aren’t exactly great now, but they could get a lot worse.
[32:17] Sammie Ellard-King:
Yeah. Yeah. There was that whole diary CEO, Gary Stevenson, and uh Daniel Priestley about it. Now, the rhetoric and the way it’s being done, I’m not sure I’m on board with personally, but um one of the things that was interesting was like making sure these larger multinational corporations are taxed at point of sale. Yeah. And I think that is actually something that should be done almost immediately. Because you’ve got Amazon, Luxembourg, yeah, you’ve got Facebook Meta, you know, uh Ireland, and God knows what other other companies in the UK. These are companies making billions of pounds a year from the British consumer. Um, so yeah, buy local. Yeah, absolutely. Buy local. We’ve been hearing it for years, and we’re like, oh yeah, you know, it’s nice to support your local.
[33:07] Michael Taylor:
It is nice. And then you see Starbucks the queues out the door.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01: So coffee that tastes like burned cigarettes. I have no idea why people go there, it’s disgusting. Um, but it’s done by design, so it all you know, it’s consistent, so it’s deliberately overburnt. Well, they have like different yeah, so so it tastes the same everywhere you go. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00: But they but they have massive marketing budgets to like me. So crack me up. It’s birds and gray ads. The um but they like their budget is massive, right? They can just pump into a uh local town, flood the market with leaflets, digital billboards, etc. Starbucks is opening, you know, social media ads, etc., all target in that area. The local coffee shop opens down the road. Yeah, he can just about afford a machine to get himself up and it’s horrible, isn’t it?
[33:59] Michael Taylor:
You’ve got no chance.
SPEAKER_00: You got no chance, and but unless you like they, you know, the ones that do well, that’s why I like seeing companies like um Black Sheep and these types of companies that like started with a little tiny unit and they built community and a vibe around them, and they came up and they they they’ve grown, you know, into a large business.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: Um that’s awesome to see, but that’s what it takes. That’s the journey that a company can go on, yeah. Just by supporting that one little truck down the road, who knows where that guy could take it.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and they they could even franchise as well. Uh so there’s a company uh called Cake Box. I saw they just opened one on Parkway in Camden. Uh, that is a franchise model um in the UK, and yeah, they’re all independent small businesses. So even though it’s a chain, you know, it’s still paying tax in the UK. To my knowledge, it’s not funneling it out of the country. But I mean, you’d be able to see in the UK accounts. I’m pretty sure it is UK only. Um, but yeah, it doesn’t have to be like a tiny coffee shop, it can be a chain. Um, but be mindful of where you’re spending your money.
[35:09] Sammie Ellard-King:
Yeah, yeah. No, I love that you said that, mate, because it is so important. You know, I always am like I walk up now and I do I even check myself.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: And I’m like, no, no, no, no, no, don’t go there. Like go walk five minutes down the road and just go in that little shop. And you know, even there, you would you go in and the level of service is lovely because it’s just so much friendlier, right?
SPEAKER_01: Because they own the shop. Yeah. And Starbucks, you know, maybe maybe they’re not hungover, maybe they are. Like, you don’t don’t really care, do they? I mean, it’s not their business.
SPEAKER_00: They’re having a burnt cigarette and then drinking a burnt cigarette. Yeah, no, I I agree. You know, they’re they they’re they’re just doing a job, right? Whereas this like job in there, hello morning, how are you? Like, and it does you see the big difference there. And obviously, you know, you there’s bad actors in every situation, you’re of course moody business owners somewhere. Uh uh, you know.
[35:57] Michael Taylor:
Yeah, I’m not saying that all small businesses owners are great. They’re not it’s not always equally if they’re not leave, you know. Maybe they deserve to go out of business. If you’re not gonna be polite to your staff and polite to customers, then what do you expect?
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you hit that on the head. So buy local guys, um, rep in this. Um, so I think what I’d love to talk about next, mate, is really a um you know, last on the subject of small businesses while we’re on it, because we’ve just had the spring statement, shall we say? Yeah. Not a budget, really, was it? It was just sort of her moving a few figures about to try and make herself look good, in my opinion. Yeah. Um but last October was a big slap in the face for British businesses. Yeah. And we have the NI rise increases happening in a couple of weeks’ time, um, which is gonna massively impact your GP, Sainsbury’s, your smaller businesses, etc. I was listening to um James Sinclair talking about it and Rossi’s ice cream, his bill alone is £120,000 more higher. So he’s had to put the ice creams up 50p. So there that like that directly where Labour’s come out and said we’re for the working person, yeah. But that’s going to directly impact the working person.
[37:15] Michael Taylor:
Yeah, it’s not a direct tax, but it is a tax. Yeah. And I’m not an economist, so I’m not gonna say whether it’s good or bad, but I guess we’ll see. You know, a lot of businesses uh seeing them say, Oh, well, can’t afford to run anymore. And when and again, when you think back to the risk to reward, is it even worth it? Um, so Greggs, they might be putting through price rises. I mean, they’re still really good value, right? I think you can get a sandwich and a drink for a fiver. Yeah. Um, so they’re just like Greggs sausage roll, you know. We do love a bit of Greggs and then like uh the um or what what the tuna mat tuna crunch baggage. Yeah, yeah, they’re pretty good. Yeah. Um, but you know, that that is a good company. I don’t own it, but they give staff bonuses, so they actually look after the staff, even though it’s a big, you know, PLC. Um, you know, it’s a it’s a real one, well-run business. Games Workshop as well gives the staff a a good bonus. Um but yeah, they they might have to put prices up everywhere is it’s gonna be pass parcel with prices because of this. Um, I think Card Factory say they can mitigate it, um, but we’ll see. I think the prices of everything is gonna go up.
[38:28] Sammie Ellard-King:
Just like everything else.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah. And unfortunately, wages probably won’t.
SPEAKER_00: Exactly. Yeah. And how can you put the wages up for people when you’re basically having to pay more for the current team than you already have? So you’ve got uh two options, right? You either cut the team or you put the price up. Yeah, dangerous, really dangerous, you know, and I think that people don’t really understand that that how much of an impact that’s gonna happen to them. And yeah, we’re already seeing everything else go through the roof. So yeah, it is an interesting one. Anything else from this spring budget that sort of caught your eye?
SPEAKER_01: Um, so I know cash ices are being looked at, and I think we are probably gonna see some changes to that. Obviously, this is speculation on my part, but the fact is they’re discussing it. Um, I think in the autumn budget, uh, because so we had this 14 billion um cut on welfare spending uh to free up some back some of the 9.9 billion aheadroom. Because of the UK bonds rise, like a lot of that has gone already. And then we’ve got the ghost of tariffs yet to come with Trump, you know, the other day it was a 25% auto tariff, um and tariff days soon. UK, even if it escapes it, this global trade war isn’t gonna be good for for everyone, right? It’s just not things are gonna, you know, you got just-in-time economies, things are gonna slow down, prices are gonna go up, it’s gonna put a spanner in the works. Plus, he’s you know, he puts them up one day and then takes them back. So, how can you how can you invest in such an unstable environment? Um, so Reeves now has this headache because of we’ve got this trade war. Uh, she might have to come back and do another tax hike. Um, that is the reality. Um, or more cuts, so it’s austerity again, or a change to the fiscal rules. Um, she’s in like a really tough position. Like, I wouldn’t want that job.
[40:40] Sammie Ellard-King:
No, of course no, she’s inherited a sort of a yeah, you know, poisoned chalice, uh, you know, poisoned chalice, really, and then and it’s just got like worse.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: Uh for her anyway.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah. But also, I think the UK government, um, you know, they sent people to Washington to campaign for Biden, right? And the odds were it was like 50-50 Biden, you know, could win it. Why choose a stallion when you could just wait out and see who wins? Because Trump’s vindictive, you know, he could actually just punish the UK because they were so anti-Trump. I don’t I don’t know. As a trader, that’s just a terrible risk-to-reward trade. I don’t know why they did that. Um, but I’m not a politician, so I wouldn’t know. Um, but yeah, I think it’s just very tough. I wouldn’t be surprised.
[41:31] Sammie Ellard-King:
One of those under the table, I think, wouldn’t you? You know, there’s so many something happening there, big budgets.
SPEAKER_01: But it wouldn’t surprise me to see uh more tax hikes, unfortunately. Yeah. Um who knows, though.
SPEAKER_00: I guess I don’t know how they can. It’s like the highest since World War II in terms of GDP. It’s actually nuts.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah. Uh I mean you you you could just take it from savers, but the problem is, you know, the ordinary person isn’t rich, and you do that, then they’re gonna have to pay uh interest income. So let’s say you’ve got uh so I think the basic rate, I think it’s is it a thousand pounds you can make a year in interest for a personal savings allowance? Yeah, yeah. And then higher rate is 500. 500, yeah. But if inflation and rates are at four and a half, uh, you might be paying tax on gains that gains that are being eroded from inflation anyway, so the real gain is like zero, and then you’re being taxed on it. Yeah, so you you’re getting punished for cash, and people aren’t rich anyway, yeah. So, you know, someone’s got to pay for it. Who’s gonna pay for it? Um, yeah, as I say, it’s an impossible job, and I wouldn’t want it.
[42:42] Sammie Ellard-King:
No, no, absolutely. I I just want to touch on this cash ISO situation because I think we breezed over it a touch, and that might might frighten a few people hearing this for the first time. Yeah. Um, what is that kind of conversation and the context around it?
SPEAKER_01: Do you know or what um so Fidelity were trying to convince the Chancellor to reduce it. Not entirely sure why. Uh, because at their suggestion was to merge cash ISAs and stocks and shares ISA into 4,000. But actually, it’s good for them if people invest, so I don’t I don’t really understand why they would ISA limit would be them 4,000. And now hopefully she throws that idea in the bin, which is where it belongs. Yeah. Um, but yeah, it’s all speculation because until something happens, right, what we don’t know. Uh the only thing that has been confirmed is that any changes won’t be till April 26th. So we do have another year to use that 20,000 allowance.
[43:39] Sammie Ellard-King:
Yeah, yeah. It’s really interesting because uh when I read it in the um in the spring statement, there’s a document that came out with it. What they said was they were looking at it to try and encourage retail investors to invest more and learn and basically grow as grow their savings better, faster. Um not faster, better. Um now that is really interesting because if you actually lower the stocks and shares ISAs, yeah, then it’s not going to encourage anybody. It’s gonna make it harder.
SPEAKER_01: Um it depends because I mean the current the current allowance is £20,000, right? Not many people are lucky enough to be in a position where they can max out £20,000.
SPEAKER_00: Well, it’s 11, yeah, 11.4% that maxed it out last year.
SPEAKER_01: Right.
SPEAKER_00: Um so not many people.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
[44:24] Sammie Ellard-King:
Not majority of investors in the UK. You’re saying that only 5% of people have them. But even so, large, there’s still millions of people within that 90% don’t reach it. Yeah. Um so yeah, but then uh you know, are you just limiting?
SPEAKER_01: It’s definitely not gonna encourage them.
SPEAKER_00: No, no, yeah, and it’s gonna annoy a large swath of people as well, yeah.
SPEAKER_01: And you limit the people who actually do invest, so it doesn’t really make sense to reduce it. Um, if anything, it’s gonna be education and educating people as to why they should invest and why they shouldn’t have money in cash ISAs. Um and there’s a there’s a BBC award-winning journalist called Paul Lewis. Yeah, I’ve seen this. Um, this this guy has been spouting nonsense, and I’m sure he is a lovely guy. You know, this isn’t a personal attack on him. Um but his opinion’s king. Yeah, his opinion’s just dangerous because you know, there’s proof that he is wrong, but because the Barclays Equity Gilt Study is biased, he just dismisses it. Um it’s insane because people will look at him and think he knows what he’s talking about. Uh he’s a BBC award winning journalist, he’s in all of these newspapers, you know, he’s looks like a credible guy, um, but uh the things that he’s saying is gonna stop people from building wealth completely because you don’t build wealth with cash. Um you just don’t.
[45:54] Sammie Ellard-King:
I’d love to know if he’s actually doing that.
SPEAKER_01: I think he I think he is. Um sticking with I think he genuinely believes it. I don’t think there’s any ill intention on his part. I think he genuinely believes it. I mean he’s wrong, but yeah, I think he I think he actually does. Yeah. Even despite all the evidence showing him that he is wrong.
SPEAKER_00: For context, for someone listening there who hasn’t seen that, what’s he saying?
SPEAKER_01: So he’s saying cash is king. I will never put my cash into a stocks and shares ISA because it might lose me money. And the thing is, that in itself is is not wrong. Like you can lose money investing. You know, there is capital at risk. Some people, you know, if you put your money into some spivvy AIM miner, then you know, there’s the realistic chances you are going to lose money. Yes. And statistically, on a you know, if you just do a random share pick, you probably are going to lose money. It’s a stock pickers market. But if you’re buying into an ETF that’s diversified, like Footsy All World again, not advice, but what I would do, um, the chances of losing money become smaller the longer you invest. So yeah, if you’re investing within five years, that’s really short term because you don’t know what’s going to happen in five years. You don’t know what’s going to happen in ten years, but you’ve got a better chance of you know making money. Yeah. Um so I I think, yeah, that is just a dangerous opinion. Um and it’s been publicly put out. He’s been saying this since 2016 at least.
[47:30] Sammie Ellard-King:
I know, but it’s the recent article, it’s like where was it, BBC or the Telegraph somewhere?
SPEAKER_01: I was a telegraph, yeah. I mean, I’ve been published in there, I’m surprised. Well, yeah, it just seems dangerous though, to because you know they’re they’re quite good over there. I’m not sure why it’s been put out.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, it’s a tough one, really. But I think something you said there is really important to touch on is that like the FTSE All World, you know, 15 years is 2.5% risk chance of losing money if you look at any 15-year period. And 20 years is a 1% in the S&P 500, that’s actually na is actually lower, but we’ve discussed the risks around that, yeah. Um, future risks around that, which is nuts. Yeah, I turned around to you and said, all right, 20 years, you’ve got to put this in, but you’ve got a you know, you’ve got a 99% chance of making money, and all you have to do is nail your hands to the table and keep adding to it. Yeah, and don’t do anything.
[48:25] Michael Taylor:
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: Mad, isn’t it?
SPEAKER_01: It is mad because you you tell people. Like I remember telling my friends about the lifetime ISA, and it this was a good one. And um, you know, because you get, for anyone who doesn’t know, you put 4,000 in, the government tops it up by 25%. So as long as you’re you meet the criteria and you’re aware of the withdrawal penalties, it’s basically free money. Like Warren Buffett doesn’t even get 25%, and you’re getting it guaranteed. And uh, you know, one of them said, Oh, like it’s a good idea, but you don’t get the money till you’re older. I’m like, Well, that’s the point of investing. Like, 25% in a year is very good.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: Like, if you keep doing that on a lot of money, you’ll be able to buy your own Caribbean island. Um, obviously, you’re not gonna be able to, because it’s four thousand dollars. But that that level of return is just insane. Yeah, it is. Um, I don’t understand why why people don’t use that.
[49:21] Sammie Ellard-King:
Yeah. Well, if you have the investing version of the lifetime ISA and you put it to work and you get an average of eight to ten percent, yeah, plus your 25, suddenly you’re looking at 33, 35% annualised return.
SPEAKER_01: It’s not bad, is it? Not bad, is it?
SPEAKER_00: No, Warren Buffett’s 21%, 22%. Yeah, I think the best investors in the world are like pushing 30 if they’re lucky.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah. So yeah, Peter Lynch, I think he had around 30% over 13 years, um, which is is pretty good considering the number of stocks he turned over. Uh, but yeah, he did say it was hard work.
SPEAKER_00: It’s kind of like a double pension, really, isn’t it? Like in a way, yeah.
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I don’t think the state pension will exist when we’re older. Um, it’s going down in real terms. Obviously, it’s going up, but you know, cost of everything’s going higher. We’re having an aging population. Um, who’s gonna pay for it? So I I just don’t think small businesses. Well, yeah, someone’s gonna pay for it. But I I think people should be taking control of their own money. Um you know, even just putting some money into stocks and shares ISA and learning about what these ETFs do and the different types that you can do, uh, yeah, it can be overwhelming. But the alternative is you don’t invest and you retire poor, which sadly is gonna be a the reality for a lot of people.
[50:46] Sammie Ellard-King:
Yeah, yeah. State pension alone, even with the average retirement pot, which currently sits at around 90,000 for men and just over 70,000 for men, uh for women. Right. Yeah, that’s pension pot um coupled with a state pension would leave you just around about £1,300 a month for the rest of your days, which is not a lot of money.
SPEAKER_01: Not not really, no, it’s not enough. I mean, if you’ve got your mortgage paid off, then that’s all then it’s better than nothing. But yeah, I mean you know you could get by.
SPEAKER_00: You could get by, but it’s not but you’re not gonna be going anywhere. Yeah, you’re not gonna be going.
SPEAKER_01: I mean, even an easy jet flight now is a few hundred quid to spend. Exactly. Yeah.
[51:31] Sammie Ellard-King:
So I mean what what you’re gonna do when you’re there when you’re there, yeah, you know, eat breadsticks.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: Can I borrow a breadstick off the table? You know, that that like that’s not what we’re supposed to be working so hard for.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, where we were a hardworking nation, people worked their absolute socks off their whole lives, and just even five or ten percent of your salary can make a massive difference.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and the earlier you start, the better as well.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it’s just like uh Ryan King said it perfectly. Um, it’s like the best tax you’ll ever pay. Because then you get it all back, yeah, and more and more, um, which is just a lovely way of looking at it. Um, Michael, I’ve absolutely loved this. Yeah, it’s been good fun, mate. Yeah, um it was a pleasure, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And uh look, I I would massively encourage anyone listening to this right now, get on your Instagram. It is class, very kind, it’s just like everyone gets put to the sword. Yeah, I just really enjoy it. And I’m like, I sign in and I see your face pop off. I’m like, ooh, who’s he going for today? And you just see like the cloud emoji or like some like ASOS down by 97%.
[52:43] Michael Taylor:
I’m like, oh, yeah, this is gonna be good. Yeah, you don’t want to be a company featured, I guess. Yeah, it was someone someone commented that the other day. If you’re featured, you know you’re in trouble.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Michael’s on it, yeah, yeah. But you’ve done an amazing job, mate. Like blown up, man. And you know, I just think it’s really if you want to know about the UK market and what’s going on and keeping your finger on the pulse without it being too stuffy and heavy and like reading an FT article, like following you, is a really great place to start.
SPEAKER_01: Oh, thank you. That’s really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, other than that, where would you want to send people today?
SPEAKER_01: Um, probably my Instagram. Yeah. Um, yeah, and I’m starting on YouTube, I’m not very good on it, but uh, I’ll try and get better. So yeah, it’s a game. I’m shifting shares on all handles. Um, and what I will say is if I DM you first, it’s not me. Yes. Like I’ve got 300 scammers on TikTok. They won’t do anything. I’ve I’ve tried. I’ve even reached a human and they still won’t do anything. So if if if someone DMs you, it’s not me. Um that’s great.
[53:43] Sammie Ellard-King:
Yeah, I get that a lot. You know, we just and the mad thing is they block us, so we can’t see it.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I know, yeah.
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, the mate, like, is this you? Yeah, like, yeah, do you want to download a Bitcoin miner? I’m like, no, it’s definitely not me. Yeah, we would never talk about crypto mining or or sending money or any of those things. It’s not something that we we would we would either of us would do. So yeah, it’s a great warning. Thank you very much, mate. But um, it’s been a real pleasure. Thanks for coming on.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, same. Thank you. And I’m sure we’ll chat soon.
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